330. The Leader's Playlist: Using Music and Neuroscience to Transform Leadership with Susan Drumm

That thought you can’t stop replaying isn’t just annoying. It quietly shapes how you walk into meetings, how you speak under pressure, and how safe other people feel around you. Susan Drumm, bestselling author of The Leader’s Playlist and founder of Meritage Leadership, joins me to unpack a powerful idea: every leader has a playlist. Some of it is literal music that shifts your energy fast. Some of it is the internal soundtrack of beliefs, doubts, old wounds, and reflex reactions that can end up leading on your behalf.

We dig into pattern recognition and pattern disruption, from Susan’s own unlikely career pivots to the everyday leadership traps of sunk cost fallacy and social expectation. We also get specific about the inner critic and imposter syndrome, including how to create separation from that voice so it stops acting like the only truth in the room. Susan brings nuance too: this isn’t about suppressing anger, grief, or frustration. Emotions carry information, like anger signaling a crossed boundary. The goal is to feel what’s real without getting stuck in an eight-lane neural highway that keeps pulling you back into resentment or self-doubt.

Then we make it practical. Susan shares how music can act as a “pattern interrupt,” why it has such a strong neuroscience effect, and how leaders can build intentional playlists tied to new “I am” or “I create” identity statements. You’ll hear a workplace example of a leader stuck in the story “I am left out” and how shifting state, attention, and behavior changes collaboration outcomes over time. If you want to lead with more emotional regulation, presence, and intention, this will give you a concrete starting point. Subscribe, share with a leader who needs a reset, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

🌐 Connect with Susan:
• Website: https://susandrumm.com/ and https://meritageleadership.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-drumm/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drummleadership/

📚 You can purchase Susan's book on Amazon:
• The Leader's Playlist: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1632996014/

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Transcript

The Inner Playlist That Leads You<br>

Mick Spiers 0:01

Have you ever noticed the same thought playing over and over again in your mind? Maybe it's the inner critic that tells you that you're not enough. Maybe it's the old story that says you don't belong in the room. Maybe it's a resentment or a frustration or a wound from the past that keeps replaying itself long after the original moment has passed. And have you ever wondered how much that internal playlist is shaping the way you show up as a leader? Today I'm joined by Susan Drumm, the best-selling author of The Leader's Playlist, a fascinating exploration of music, neuroscience, and leadership transformation. Susan helps us understand that every leader has a playlist. Some of it is literal, the music that can shift our energy, our mood, and our state, but some of it is metaphorical. There are repeated beliefs, stories, doubts, fears, and reactions that can quietly run in the background and influence the way we lead. So as you listen today, I invite you to think about your own playlist. What is the thought, belief, emotion, or pattern that keeps playing on repeat for you? Is it true? Is it serving you? And is it helping you become the leader you want to be? Hey everyone and welcome back to the Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Susan Drumm. Susan is a CEO advisor, an executive coach, a keynote speaker, and the founder of Meritage Leadership. But she's also the best-selling author of a book called The Leader's Playlist, which has really captured my attention. It's about unleashing the power of music and the neuroscience behind how music can transform your leadership and transform your life. And I have to say, I've never thought of this one myself. This is not something that's been in my conscious thought. So I know that I'm going to go on a journey of discovery today and learn something new and look to see how I can apply it. And I invite you to do the same. So I'm dying to get into this, Susan, without any further ado. I'd love you to say hello to the audience and give a little flavor of your background and what inspired this? What inspired this exploration

Susan’s Unlikely Career Pivots<br>

Mick Spiers 2:24

of music and neuroscience and leadership?

Susan Drumm 2:29

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me and excited to be with you and be with the listeners that are with us right now. You know, I have a very eclectic background. And I think what I'm all about is pattern recognition and pattern disruption. And I realize now looking back on my own life that the steps I've taken have all been about disrupting patterns that I could see were not working for me and getting on to different paths. So I went to Harvard Law School, but did not end up practicing law. I went right into management consulting at the Boston Consulting Group and did that for a number of years and then went to NBC television in at 30 Rock in New York and learned some more work there, more as an internal consultant focused on Six Sigma, and then as a marketing director of marketing and business development. And after about five years post-law school, I felt still not finding my what I was here to do, what was the right path. And the only thing that seemed inspiring to me was to go to acting school. So I got a master's from the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. And little did I know it was that experience that would lead the path to the career that I've been in for 25 years now and had my own firm for 20 years. And part of that as an actor, we learn so much about ourselves as we learn to build skills of empathy to play these different characters, to deal with the inner critic, that voice inside your head, because that's going to show up when you're on stage. And if you can't be present with your fellow actor because you're worried about how you're looking, that's going to get in the way of your performance. And I kept thinking, gosh, there's got to be a way I could bring this back to the business context because I'm learning so much on this side. And that's how I got into leadership development and truly have been doing it ever since, but now applying it to senior leaders, um CEOs, and uh helping them lead their teams through disruption and change.

Mick Spiers 4:45

So I'm gonna say there's two pattern disruptions that I can see there, Susan. One is it's a huge leap from Six Sigma and process improvement and consulting to become an actor. That's a big left turn. But then the 180 to go, well, hang on a second, all of these things that I've just learned here actually apply back into the business world. So that's that's an interesting pivot as as well. Tell me pattern recognition. What were the patterns that you were seeing? Like, so you said that you weren't finding to you didn't use these words, so I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but you weren't finding purpose or meaning in those early days. So you wanted to pivot, but what were the signs? How did you recognize that, hey, this is just not working?

Susan Drumm 5:28

Yeah, I think it was I was having trouble, you know, I'm a very driven, motivated person, but I was having trouble getting motivated. And I kept thinking, I mean, this goes back to why did I not practice law after going to Harvard Law School? Like that's a sort of a that's also a strange disruption and twist. And I remember working for different law firms and thinking, I'm not gonna enjoy this. I don't I'm not motivated by it. I'm fundamentally opposed by some of it. I'm opposed by the lack of efficiency in how it's being run. And all of those things I could feel I was not in alignment with. And I had to make a call, which was a pretty bold call not to even practice after spending and incurring so much loan debt in this arena to do something different. And I'm glad I listened to that call. And I think that same call came back to me in a way, this deep intuitive feeling that this is not what my life's work is or my purpose. And but I don't know what that is. And so I tell younger generation now, you may not know, but you only will find out by taking action towards that calling, towards those steps. And you know, when I went to drama school, people thought I was crazy. I mean, I thought I was kind of crazy. Like, what am I doing here? And yet it was pivotal in looking back now in the direction my career took.

Mick Spiers 7:01

There's three interesting things I'm hearing there, Susan. What one is I wasn't enjoying it. Two was the lack of alignment, which to me, something there wasn't sitting with your values. You mentioned the word inefficiency. For other people, incongruence of the work that I'm doing, the company I'm working with, doesn't reflect my own personal values. It feels wrong. It just it just feels wrong. But the third one, the third one that was interesting there is a bit of people fall into either I'm gonna say two things sunk cost fallacy of I've already invested so much of my money and time to become this person that I thought I wanted to be, only to find out it wasn't all that I thought about. So the sunk cost fallacy, people might just stick with it. Or the other one I was thinking when you're talking is societal expectation. Like so when you said, Are you crazy going to drama school? That societal expectation can be very heavy that people think, well, uh, people expect me to be this person, but that's not who I truly truly am. How does that sit with you?

Susan Drumm 8:12

Absolutely. You've you have deep and powerful listening skills there. And I think you've identified some of those key moments. I think the one piece I haven't talked about that you could add to that was just noticing how the leaders I was working for in a way were demotivating as well versus motivating. And I could see what poor leadership did to me and to those around me. And almost to the point where I was like, what is wrong with me? Like, do I just not want to work? Which is kind of funny now because you know, so much of my work is my passion. And but at the time, I just now knowing what I know about what effective leadership looks like, I think I can see now those seeds. I had to have those experiences so that I developed the compassion for both leaders and how they're leading others, but also for those they lead who feel stifled or uninspired, or, you know, just sort of this sense of lack of engagement.

Mick Spiers 9:23

Yeah. Okay, I understand, really clear here as well.

Sunk Cost And Social Pressure<br>

Mick Spiers 9:27

So, what what could you say to people that are listening to this that might be falling into one or both of those patterns where they're doing something that they don't enjoy or doesn't sit with their values, or they're in a organization with poor leadership, maybe even a toxic culture, but they have invested their life up until this point around their current profession, whatever that may be. And they are thinking, yeah, that this Susan, it sounds like exactly what I'm going through right now. What advice could you give to someone that is going to try and pattern interrupt and is going to try and do a left turn?

Susan Drumm 10:04

Yeah. Well, one, you probably have some clues about what lights you up already. And so maybe sit with that and explore it a little bit more. Even within the current work, you know, there are things that maybe have called your interest or work that felt a little bit more exciting and wanting to jump out of bed and go do it. And look to those. What was the what were you doing? Who were you doing it for? And ultimately, who were you helping? Because I do believe we all fundamentally want to make an impact. So who were you serving? And if it's not in a work, what is it outside of work where you feel that? And start to look for those threads. And then you want to find places where those can live more fully for you. And that superpower that you start to learn like, what do you think your superpower is? What do you do very easily that seems to not come as naturally to other people? There's great clues in that for you about the direction to take things. And I think it's also important, though, that there's some toleration. Every job has some parts of it that are more challenging, or maybe we don't like the best. And I think you need to look at the whole and the balance and zoom out. I often say, like, we all have to take out the trash at some point, and right? It's not the funnest job, but we do it because we want to clean home and all those things. But so recognize that there's no job that's going to be always every single piece. There will be in anything you do, maybe challenges or things you don't like, but is there on the whole, do you feel some sense of energy, some sense of purpose, and a belief that what you've been given as a gift is actually being utilized in the world. That's what people really want.

Mick Spiers 12:00

Yeah, very good, Susan. So I'm hearing an another level of self-awareness here and another level of pattern recognition. But now we're looking for the more virtuous things. So not just the pattern recognition of what's not working for me, but what is working for me and what are my superpowers? What am I good at? And to be less modest about that and go, actually, you know what? I really am good at this part. And it can help another human being. And, you know, who am I serving and what problem am I trying to help them solve is where purpose can start coming. And even if it's a task that on the surface, the task doesn't, it's not enjoyable in the moment, but you can see that it has an impact on the world or it has an impact on other people's lives. It can, it can give you that motivation and joy, almost renewable joy that you've got to there's meaning to this. It actually means something. Yeah, really good. Okay. Now I want to come full circle now to the bridge from acting back to the leadership world. Because this is another form of pattern recognition to go, I'm learning all these skills here as an actor. And to be clear, I'm not an actor, so I'm curious here to to understand more about this. I'm learning all these skills and then going, oh, that's broadly applicable back

Finding Clues To Purpose And Strengths<br>

Mick Spiers 13:14

to the leadership world and the business world. And and by the way, all of those poor leadership practices that I experienced before, if people embodied these skills, they'd be better leaders. Tell us about that journey.

Susan Drumm 13:27

Yeah, well, you summed it up so well right there with if God, I'm learning all these skills. And if some of the leaders that I was working under had learned these, I think we could have had a different outcome. And so I do think that that is a fundamental piece that inspired me. Another piece that inspired me was at the time, and this is back in the early 2000 timeframe, I did uh landmark education, which was a breakthrough in understanding the study of being or who we are versus doing, you know, being versus doing. Who are we being and how do we perceive the world? And how does that influence our experience? And that was such a profound journey for me. I thought I want to bring some of this work back to the business world. So I think both the acting and that landmark experience and landmark education gave me the drive to then use my consulting skills from BCG. And I went to work for a boutique firm that focuses on strategy development and leadership development. And that's where I found I just fell in love with the leadership development piece and went out on my own then about 20 years ago. In fact, it's 20 years this year. So that's incredible and exciting at the same time.

Mick Spiers 14:52

Congratulations, Susan, on all of your success, including the book that we're gonna talk about in a moment. I'm picking up a thread here. I want to test it with you, make sure I'm getting it. Picking up a thread of almost identity science here. So, and and I'm gonna go backwards to come forwards here. So when things were feeling misaligned and incongruent for you, there was something that wasn't connecting with who you truly truly are. And and when that happens, that's when you start feeling incongruent and things don't feel right. Then I'm hearing going into the acting world, and I don't know much about the acting world, but you're portraying an identity. And the best actors, like I think about method acting as some something that most of us would know that term and know what it means, they embody that I identity and they become all of their behavior becomes congruent with that identity. And then I'm hearing you pick that up and take that back into the business world and go, well, being true to yourself is what makes a great leader. Does that thread work for you? This identity element of who am I really? And am I being true to my values, to who I really am? I'm gonna say, not playing the role of leader today and playing the role that I think like society expects me to play. I'm being true to myself. And when I'm true to myself, I'm

Acting Skills That Make Better Leaders<br>

Mick Spiers 16:12

then authentic and then I'm a true leader. How does that sit with you? Does that make sense?

Susan Drumm 16:17

Yeah, I think there's something in there, and then there's also an ability to take that, I would say, almost too far. And so what I say that the being true to who you are, at its core, I think the best leaders fundamentally love who they are, love themselves. They're not trying to what I often see is leaders playing out their childhood wounds in the workplace. Like that's the bottom line. And so we're all on a journey to of this self-discovery of how how we're going to learn and grow. And those that are on that journey to start to learn to love themselves, then know how to learn to love their people. And at the end of the day, it is through that that you truly inspire followship because people can feel the difference when they're being used as a, you know, an obstacle, an enabler or relevant. Like if I treat you in that transactional way because it's about me getting what I want, that's not great leadership. And over time is going to be difficult. People are only then doing that for the money or for whatever, they're hoping to get something from you. The leader that's truly inspiring and inspires great followership is the one that you can tell truly cares about the other person because they've already given that care to themselves. And I've often seen the more I see leaders comfortable in their own skin, let's say true to themselves from that standpoint, the more powerful leader they are. Where I don't want it to go too far is sometimes I've heard that phrasing to mean to justify, well, that's just who I am. I'm just a really blunt leader that, you know, and I'm being true to myself here. And it's like, no, there's things to work on in terms of noticing what your impact is on others. And if leadership is really about developing the capacity and capability in others, are you being this blunt for in service of that or in service of because that's actually feeds your ego, right?

Mick Spiers 18:26

So really interesting. Okay. All right. So that's a good trap for us to watch out for in ourselves and in others. I've seen it with people using radical candor in the same way. So either using the term radical candor, or in this case authenticity, as a license to be a jerk and then just go, well, that's who I am. No. That's that's not how to get on in this world. Yeah, very interesting. All right. So this learning to love yourself before you can love others. So there's a lot of self-awareness here, but there's also the ability to be self-compassionate and to be able to know what it takes to nurture your own mindset, your own well-being, so that you can then also do that for others. I I like that, Susan. One of the things that was popping into my head when you were talking about that is what about people that are doing that in a different way? Now, I was in I was in a meeting yesterday where one of my counterparts did a presentation where honestly they they knocked it out of the park. But this person's self-doubt and their inner critic, all right. So now we talk about the story we tell ourselves in our own mind about ourselves. It can either be a positive story or it can be a destructive story. Their inner critic, absolutely beating herself up, going, oh, that was terrible, and I really was unhappy with that. Maybe an element of perfectionism in there as well, but mostly it was mostly it was self-doubt and almost imposter syndrome. How does someone patent interrupt when that self-love is actually not self-love, it's the opposite. It's it's destructive, negative self-talk in a critic.

Authenticity Without The Excuse<br>

Susan Drumm 20:07

Yeah. Well, one is to learn more about your inner critic and how it operates. That's the one place where I would direct if I was working with this individual, like, let's take a look at this voice that likes to talk to you that way and what they say. And in doing that, we start to allow the person to create separation between that voice and who they truly are. And when you start to get that separation, the separation allows you to have choice to whether you're going to listen to that or you're going to choose a different path, or you're going to give equal airtime to a voice that you've tampered that says, actually, did a great job. Look at the truth of what people are saying, what questions they had, right? Is it true that this what this voice is saying to you? But because it's been on a repeat playlist, you know, that is the one that's playing the loudest in the background. And so a leader like that believes like that's the only voice, and it is not the only voice.

Mick Spiers 21:11

Yeah. Okay. So what is this voice telling me? And do I know it to be true? This is one of the interesting things for me, Susan. And I've been watching people with imposter syndrome in particular for a while now. And the the very definition is persistent self-doubt despite contrary evidence. But those those words, contrary evidence, the evidence is there that no, actually, you you knocked it out of the park, but they're not believing it themselves. And it's hard for them to read the label on the jar from inside of the jar. And no matter how many people tell them, no go, no, that was really good. And it was specifically good in these ways, they still go home going, Oh, could have done better. How do we pattern interrupt that further to the point where they they believe it? So you you've Given a good question, which do I know this to be true? But how do they believe it when the contrary evidence tells them that no, that really was a good bit of

[Ad] Leadership Lessons From The Great Books

Mick Spiers 22:09

work?

(Cont.) Authenticity Without The Excuse<br>

Susan Drumm 22:10

Yeah. Well, for some leaders, it depends on the individual leader. Some leaders, I'll go into what is that leader, what is that voice trying to do for you? Because underneath there's a good intention of that voice, right? And if we can get the good intention behind it, but we can also see the damage that it does. So let's get really present to like what is the damage that that voice is doing to you? How is it influencing? What's it doing to your health? What's it doing to your perception? And so we can understand the means. I would say the voice has a good intention, but the means are not long-term effective and giving them a lot more choice behind the matter. Now, how else could they pattern interrupt? Well, you know, one of the two

Inner Critic And Imposter Syndrome<br>

Susan Drumm 22:56

powerful modalities that I use that I know we're going to be talking about, one is around music, and the other one is around understanding your leadership style type through the Enneagram, because the Enneagram will point that whatever that dark voice is, that saboteur, that inner critic, it will help you recognize that that's part of your patterning. And but how you grow is very clearly articulated with the map of the Enneagram. And so you embark on that journey to follow those growth paths.

Mick Spiers 23:29

Yeah, really good. Okay. So I'm I'm picking up a few things there, Susan. One is you don't necessarily need to ignore it, you need to pay attention and go, what is this drawing my attention to? Why is this in the critic drawing my attention to something? But then understand that if you repeat that playlist on repeat, and we're going to talk about that in a few moments, that it over time it's going to be destructive. So you do need to pattern interrupt it. So pay attention, learn from it, and then learn also how to control it is what so so that it doesn't become the dominant playlist. Take the lesson, but then park it, is what I'm hearing there. Okay.

Music As A Pattern Interrupt<br>

Mick Spiers 24:11

So let's let's do the segue then. So the leaders playlist and unleashing the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life. And we talk about this internal playlist where you and I have just been talking about inner critic, what is an internal playlist? What does that mean? And where does music come in?

Susan Drumm 24:31

Yes. And so when I talk about music, I'm talking about it both literally and figuratively. So that internal playlist figuratively is what we've been talking about. But there's actually a use for music literally to shift that pattern. I've always loved music, and I found, I'm just going to share a little bit about how did I come to recognize that music was such a powerful pattern interrupt. And it comes from a personal story. I had the ending of a very important to me five-year relationship. And it ended in not a good way with some betrayal that I discovered. And I remember feeling such resentment, like life was unfair, and how like I just got stuck in a loop of resentment. And no matter how much I felt like I was doing work to heal this, every time I thought of this situation, I'd be back in this like loop of resentment. And I knew as a coach, this is not serving me to hold this energy all the time. And yet I couldn't help myself because it was just like, oh my God, you know. And so what I found is that I started to, when I was just like, I'm not gonna go down that path, right? But the brain has already created a neural pathway the size of an eight-lane highway. I have grooved in that path. So it is any little thing that would remind me of that, I'd be down that path. And so I said, no, I'm not gonna do that. And I heard this was back when Bruno Mars came out with 24 carat magic. And that song would shift my energy into something like, the party is, I have arrived, the party has started, like, let's go. And it would just bring the smile to my face. And I found I could not hold the energy of resentment and the energy of empowerment at the same time. You can't. And so every time I started going down the path, nope, I'd either think of the song or actually put the song on or start the day with that song. And I found the more I did that, the more I was able to leave that old highway. I call it the highway to hell, that old highway behind. And then I've created a whole playlist of songs that had me feel that feel in this state of empowerment. And I called it the I am empowered playlist. And the more I would do it hiking, and I would play some songs when I first started my day, or I would play a song when I started getting triggered on something. And if I could take a break, right, to reset myself. And I could think, gosh, there's something here with music because I've never seen something be able to so quickly shift how I was feeling. And that's what got me into researching music's impact on the brain. So in the book, I also talk about why music has this impact on us. And some of the fascinating things that I learned is that music lights up all four regions of your brain. There are very few things that do that that actually can light them all. And they allow new neural networks to form more quickly. So if you want to change a habit, if you want to make a change, everything is faster and more efficient if you embed it with music. And it allows, and so I would the way I think about it is over time we build these highways of places that aren't serving us. And they will always be there because we've built that in the brain as a literally a neural pathway network that's an eight-lane highway. How do we more quickly build that other road? Because change is hard. Why? Because it takes a while of repetition to get that new neural pathway to go from like a dirt road to an eight-lane highway. Well, music will accelerate that process. And that's when I developed the technique that now I use with some of my leaders to help them shift off of patterns that are not serving them. One is identifying that pattern and then literally tying music, both the old playlist and the new playlist.

Mick Spiers 28:32

Yeah, really interesting, Susan. So a few things there. So really good lesson there that what we're talking about here is both figurative and literal. So the story that you keep on telling yourself about yourself in your own mind becomes very powerful. And if you let it run away on you in a way that's not serving you to use you the term that you use, then it's going to get deeper and deeper ingrained in your neuropathways. I I think that's real that's really interesting. And then using music literally to pattern interrupt it. This is one I before we hit record, Susan, I was talking to you about the word autopilot and how many of us go into autopilot. I think this this is me right now uh sticking up my hand and going, I listen to music every single day, and I I love music, and music is very emotional for me as well, Susan, in both ways. And I'm gonna I'm gonna use Bruno Mars here and and his collection. Yeah, 24 carat gold. It's hard not to feel good when you listen to that song. But some of his more emotional songs like Rain and things like this, when I I I feel it like I really, oh, it's like really sad, and all this emotion emotion that he's sharing in that song, but I'm not doing it intentionally, is what I'm trying to tell you. I then feel that emotion and it changes my emotional state, no matter what I'm listening to. And in his collection, I go through the journey of, oh wow, this is awesome, through to, oh, this is so sad, but it's not intentional. I'm not doing that intentionally, I'm just listening to it because I happen to like his musicality in his songs. So then what I'm hearing from you is well, the way to use it for virtuous good is to be more intentional with it and to create that playlist. Okay.

Susan Drumm 30:20

Exactly. Be more intentional. Notice music is gonna have an impact on you. Are there things you have sort of on repeat playlist? And how can we shift that? And how can we use music as the bridge to get us into a state that is more powerful?

Mick Spiers 30:36

Yeah. Okay. So two elements I want to check here. One is using it as a a pattern interrupt that if I myself have been feeling a bit down lately or uh whatever the case may be, I'm gonna maybe patent interrupt and listen to songs that I know are gonna pep me up. That's number one. So it's more the self-care element. But then I'm picturing in my head now that I'm driving to work and I'm going into some meetings, and I know that today I need to be either could be inspirational or I need to have a conversation with someone that I've been putting off for a long time, or uh like thinking about what do I need to show up like today?

Anger As Data Not A Trap<br>

Mick Spiers 31:18

And instead of just turning the radio on, I'm going to go, right, I need to be inspirational today. So I'm gonna listen to uplifting music as I go to work. Is that what I'm hearing?

Susan Drumm 31:29

Yes, yes. For the first one, I want to be clear, I am not suggesting that we don't need to process some of the more depleting emotions. I like to give the example that, you know, it is very important when you feel angry to feel it because anger has both information and a gift in it. You know, the information in anger is that a boundary has been crossed or a value has been violated. And the gift is then the motivation to reestablish the boundary. If we don't allow ourselves to feel that, we never get that information. So, what I'm more talking about is when we're stuck in a pattern of anger, then just like I got stuck in a pattern of resentment, and resentment is just a form of anger, right? I got stuck in that and I found like I just kept going on that eight-lane highway. And that is where we want to interrupt and be like, this is no longer serving me and or anyone around me, right? And so I need to find some help for getting off this lane around this this road, this particular road.

Mick Spiers 32:42

Yeah, I think there's an important lesson there. So if you are, if you have been through some kind of trauma or there's some kind of old wounds that that are reappearing, if you don't process it properly, it'll just keep coming back. But the difference here of what I'm telling, what I'm hearing from you is if you let it consume you and that's all you can ever think about now, and and it happened five years ago, you do need to be able to then bring yourself back. So so we're not saying don't process trauma, uh, we're saying be in control of how you're gonna process that trauma and come out the other end. Is is that is that right? Yeah.

Susan Drumm 33:19

Yeah. Intentional about it. Yeah, intentional about it and just notice, you know, when it is sort of is it something that you need to really feel to get so that you can move on, or is it something you feel stuck in in a way that's not, you know, I have an I think an aversion to stuckness in general. So I'm always looking for what how can we get people unstuck from where they feel like, you know, they've tried everything and nothing's working?

Mick Spiers 33:49

Yeah. All right. So, Susan, look, I can live with what you're saying here and I can feel it when you're talking about a personal relationship breakdown and how this might work in that sense. But what about in the workplace? Can you give us examples of how this type of these patterns and and how we can interrupt those patterns when it comes to the workplace as opposed to personal relationships?

Workplace Story Excluded To Included<br>

Susan Drumm 34:12

Yes, yes. Um, well, actually in the book, I really want people to look for examples for themselves. So I give a number of short stories. There are actually nine of them, because I'm hoping one of them you can see yourself in, like, oh yeah, that's that's kind of the pattern I've been running. And I wanted to give people a variety to choose from so they can see that different things are activated at different times. And so I'll give you an example of one where there was a leader that I talk about, Deborah, who got some 360 feedback that she was not collaborating effectively with her peers. She was a chief marketing officer at a tech company. And she would get upset every time there was like some meeting where she wasn't invited to, or that she got there were emails that she was left off the distribution. And her point of view was look, I'm in the marketing function. I need to know about these things in order to be effective. And that's very true. But how it was showing up for her was generating a lot of anger and frustration. And so we started to look at, well, I was curious to know what was happening in her mind when this occurred. And she said, you know, when I'm not invited to the meeting or being part of the email, and she said, I just feel like I'm being left out. And I said, Oh, okay. Well, let's look at where else in your life you feel left out, because my sense is it's not only happening here, that it's a let's say a sore spot or a wound that you have. And so we looked at lots of different places in her personal life places in her early career where she felt that and she could start to see that was an underlying playlist. And we actually called it that, like I am left out. And then we decided to get a pattern interrupt song that would best represent that for her so she could see when that pattern was operating. And so um, she chose the song Adele's Hello, which you know, it's sort of like, hello, can you hear me? I've been calling a thousand times and you won't pick up the phone. I'm like, well, probably because someone does it. Like, so you hear this like phrase of this woman wanting to be maybe included, or that's what this leader made it mean. And what was me won't engage me anymore, right? And so this way, when she started to feel that anger come up, she goes, Oh, it's operating. There's a Dell again. There's do I want to be Adele in this moment? Right. And so that's the first step is interrupting the pattern, but then we need to create the new pattern. And so we looked at what do we want to do instead? And a lot of that was a conversation is what do you either want to bring or create in the world, or what do you want to be true about yourself? And I like to use I am statements because they're very powerful. So either I am or I create. For her, she wanted I create peace and appreciation. That was like very meaningful for her. So we created an actual playlist of songs that had her feel in that way, like this sense of peace and appreciation. And I remember one of them was Natalie Merchant's kind and generous, like that that song just you know lit her up. So similar to my Bruno Mars, like what is that series of songs? And so part of that was her practicing being in that state more frequently, using the music to be an aid for that, as well as really her homework was to look for places in which she was included. Start putting your attention there. And, you know, that started small where she'd be like, okay, I'm there's a I got invited by the neighbor for a glass of wine. Or, you know what, my kids invited me to a special brunch. But the more she did that, she put her attention on looking for places she was included. She started to notice places in the workplace where she was included. So, as opposed to being hypersensitive to where she wasn't included, now she could see the breadth of the reality of the situation that there were plenty of places in which she was included. And the more she did that, the more her energy around this issue softened. And the more she softened, the more invitations came to the point where her like nemesis, the guy that didn't want her as part of this, they now have coffee every other week to catch up. And she feels like that's enough. That's all she needs. She she's being clued in on what product is doing, right? And so it was, but uh, what I want to really point out is so often people need everyone else to change, but you have no power there. The only power you have is to change you. And if you start changing how you're perceiving things and change that internal playlist, life is gonna show up differently for you.

Mick Spiers 39:11

Yeah, really good, Susan. There are so many things I'm I take away from that. I'm gonna try and summarize the key elements for me. So I'm hearing a lot of notice and naming, right? So, what is this emotion that I'm feeling right now? Why this emotion? What is it drawing my attention to? And not to ignore that, not to suppress it, just to get curious about it and go, why this emotion? Why this emotion now, which comes to the what triggered me so that I can understand better how this came about? Do I know this to be true? And I heard you they're looking for almost contrary evidence. Okay, so I'm seeing all the times where I felt excluded, but what about all the times where I was actually included, but I didn't notice? So do I do I know this to be true? And then what response, not reaction, but what response is going to serve me and others well right now? And we're in control of that. Well, and there's an element there of focusing on what we can control and letting go of what we can't control. And what we can control is our own response to that stimulus and deciding whether it's going to serve us well or not. And to be clear, in some cases, that that initial reaction that you had that might have been a potentially perceived as a negative response, maybe that is the one that's going to serve you well right now. And in other cases, it's going to be no, that's no, I I let my own mind get away here, that there's a better response here. And one of the powerful ones, uh, coming all the way back to service of others, if what I took away there, Susan, and I hope I didn't misinterpret this, that if you're in a situation where you're often feeling excluded, one of the ways to pattern interrupt would be for you to be the person that includes others. And that will bring you joy, but it'll also pattern interrupt at the same so to role model the behavior that you're looking for from others, if someone is treating you poorly and excluding you, you go out of your way to be inclusive to others and it starts a new pattern. Did I get that right?

Susan Drumm 41:21

That can be, as long as there's I would say resonance. What are you doing it for? Are you doing it for like I'm gonna show you, right? Or are you doing it because that's truly how you believe life should be? But you know, it goes back to that quote, be the change you want to see in the world. And this is exactly in that. But that's why I say people, if it's inauthentic, people feel it. They can feel it. And that's why the work was also with the music for her to authentically feel that state of being. And by doing that, she's coming, she's starting to be in that place, and then her actions from that place are more authentic, not manipulative. Because people can feel that subconsciously, they feel that manipulation. And so that's why I think it's really important that it actually be from coming from that true authentic place.

Mick Spiers 42:17

Yeah, really nice, Susan.

Susan Drumm 42:18

Okay, excellent.

Mick Spiers 42:19

Now, the one final question I want to ask before we go into a rapid round. There's gonna be a lot of people listening to this and they'll be doing some pattern recognition of their own, Susan. They're going to be going, Oh, how is this Susan Drummer? How is she in my head? She's, you know, she's recognizing everything I go through every day. If someone is in these patterns, where do they start? How do they start doing the things

Where To Start Quiz Enneagram Pause<br>

Mick Spiers 42:43

that you're talking about?

Susan Drumm 42:44

Well, we have an easy way that people can start looking at this pattern. And they can, I have a quiz on um my personal brand site, which is susandrum.com. And it's it's a quiz to look at your superpowers and some of your blind spots or things that could get in the way. And it's the things that could get in the way that is the clue to the patterns. When you do this quiz, it will um, when it gives you the results, you'll also get a follow-up that will give you the chapter that is best similar to in the book. Like I mentioned, there are nine different chapters, and so that you can see, huh, what is another leader? I mean, not the exactly how your playlist shows up, but what were they grappling with? Do I see any similarities? And how did they use music to shift it? And what were the actual songs that they used? And can I use that as inspiration to create my own playlist? So that's a powerful way to start. I think another powerful way to start is to understand your leadership patterns in more depth using something like the Enneagram, which I believe is a pattern recognition tool and the paths of growth that it illuminates. Are the pattern interrupt? And we have a resource to do that at Enneagramaplied.com where you can learn a bit more about how to do that. So those are two great places. But so much of it is, I think, the power of self-observation of taking that step back, each of these things that we've talked about, to recognize a pattern, you need to be able to powerfully pause, to zoom out and notice the pattern, and then be a choice to shift the pattern. And those four steps are the crux to everything I've been talking about.

Mick Spiers 44:42

Yeah, that's a perfect Susan. What what a great way to sum it up at the end. And I I do encourage everyone to take these steps. So get onto Susan's quiz here. Lean into this, lean into this and see what it you see what you learn about yourself, but then take action. Take action and then get more intentional about it. Notice a name, pay attention, get curious, and then take intentional actions. This is what Susan's talking about. All right,

Rapid Round Resources And Closing

Mick Spiers 45:11

fantastic. Thank you so much. I'm going to take us now to our wrap it round. These are the same four questions we ask all of our guests. So, what's the one thing that you know now, Susan Drumm, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Susan Drumm 45:24

Wow, in a nutshell, it's all gonna work out. You know, I will find the path and I will find the passion and I will be proud of the work that I do in the world. And I didn't know that at 20.

Mick Spiers 45:38

Brilliantly said. I think we all need to remember that as well. Very good. What's your favorite book?

Susan Drumm 45:44

The Art of Possibility. I love that book. It is about mindset reframe, and a lot of the things I've shared today is mindset reframe. And it just shows how when you move into a mindset of possibility, what's possible?

Mick Spiers 46:01

Very nice one. And that's a pattern interrupt as well. We didn't get into this one, Susan, but the the ability to patent interrupt from a victim mindset to a creator mindset. Yeah, yeah, very good. Okay. What's your favorite quote?

Susan Drumm 46:15

Something that Albert Einstein said, which is the solution to our current problems cannot be found from the level of consciousness that created them.

Mick Spiers 46:26

Oh, so powerful. That's another pattern interrupt. I can see pattern recognition and patent interruption is absolutely in envelopes everything that you uh that you work on, Susan. Finally, how do how do people find you? There's going to be people listening to this and they want to take the quiz. They probably want to read the book and and take action. How do they find you, Susan?

Susan Drumm 46:50

Yeah, so you can reach me at susandrum.com, and that's drum with two ends. And yes, I wrote a book on leadership and music, and my last name is Drum. Um, but it's S-U-S-A-N-D-R-U-M-M. That's my personal brand site. I also have a podcast myself called The Enlightened Executive, where we talk about these types of things as well. And then my business leadership firm is Meritageleadership.com.

Mick Spiers 47:20

Yeah. All right. Brilliant, Susan. Look, thank you deeply from myself and also from the audience. I'll speak for myself first and just say you have absolutely drawn my attention to something that I would go about autopilot on my life all the time. Particularly this impact of music. And then you've inspired me to take action to be more intentional about the way that I, yes, the element of emotional regulation that is a thread through all of this is something that I do practice, but I've never thought about it with adding the element of the pattern interrupts with music, et cetera. So you've inspired me to take action. And I know that you've done that with the audience as well. So thank you so much for the gift of your time and the gift of of your wisdom and and your toolkit that you're offering us here. Thank you.

Susan Drumm 48:10

Thank you.

Mick Spiers 48:12

What a fascinating conversation with Susan Drum. I have to say, I came into this episode curious, but I left with a much deeper appreciation for the connection between music, neuroscience, emotional regulation, and leadership. The idea that really stayed with me is that every leader has a playlist. Sometimes the playlist is energizing. It helps us show up with confidence, optimism, courage, and purpose. But sometimes that playlist is depleting. It might be the inner critic, the imposter syndrome, the old wound, the resentment, the self-doubt, or the story that we are somehow not enough. And if we do not become aware of that playlist, it can start leading on our behalf. That is such an important leadership lesson because the leader's inner world does not stay private. It leaks into the room. It shapes our tone, our presence, our decisions, our relationships, and the experience other people have of us. One of the key lessons from Susan was the importance of pattern recognition and pattern disruption. First, we notice the pattern. Then we need to create enough separation from it to realize that we have a choice. The inner critic may be loud, but it does not have to be the only voice we listen to. The old story may be familiar, but that does not mean it is true. And the emotional reaction may be understandable, but that does not mean it should be allowed to run the meeting. I also appreciated Susan's nuance around difficult emotions. This is not about suppressing anger, sadness, grief, or frustration. Those emotions can carry important information. Anger, for example, may tell us that a boundary has been crossed or a value has been violated. But there is a difference between feeling an emotion and becoming stuck in it. So here is my invitation to you. This week, notice your playlist. Notice the thought that keeps repeating. Notice the emotion that keeps returning. Notice the story you keep telling yourself about who you are, what you are capable of, and what other people think of you. Then ask yourself, is this playlist serving me? Is it helping me lead with energy, presence, and intention? And if not, what new playlist do I need to choose? Because leadership is not about never being triggered, it's about noticing when we are triggered and choosing a more conscious response. Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Leadership Project. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who may need to interrupt an old pattern and choose a new playlist. And join us next week when I speak with Brad Simmons about the five stances of leadership. We move from the internal playlist that shapes how we feel to the leadership stance we choose in the room when to step up, when to step back, when to step in, when to step down, and how to lead from our center. It is a powerful continuation of this month's theme of becoming more intentional in the way we lead. You've been listening to the Leadership Project. If today sparked an insight, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with one other person who would benefit from listening to the show. A huge thank you to Gerald Calibo for his tireless work editing every episode. And to my amazing wife Sei, who does all the heavy lifting in the background to make this show possible. None of this happens without them. Around here we believe leadership is a practice, not a position. That people should feel seen, heard, valued, and that they matter. That the best leaders trade ego for empathy, certainty for curiosity, and control for trust. If that resonates with you, please subscribe on YouTube and on your favorite podcast app. And if you want more, follow me on LinkedIn and explore our archives for conversations that move you from knowing to doing. Until next time, lead with curiosity, courage, and careful.