327. Great Leaders Care: Developing Safe, Resilient and Successful Teams with Graeme Cowan

What if the leadership skill your team needs most is not sharper strategy or faster execution, but a leader who genuinely cares and knows what to do when things get hard? I sit down with Graeme Cowan, a leading voice on workplace mental health, resilience, and leadership, and a founding director of R U OK Day. Graeme also shares his own lived experience of depression and the long road back, plus the purpose that came from turning struggle into service. 

We dig into why caring leadership is not soft and not in conflict with performance. It is how you create sustainable results without losing good people to burnout. We talk about “mood contagion” and why your energy sets the tone, then get practical with Graeme’s moodometer framework so you can notice early warning signs while you are still in the amber zone. If you lead a team, support leaders, or work in HR, you will hear clear ways to protect your own wellbeing while still showing up for others. 

From there, we move into crew care: belonging, psychological safety, and growing together. Graeme shares simple rituals that build trust fast, including a powerful approach used in elite teams. We also cover red zone care and Graeme’s I CARE framework so you can support someone in distress with empathy, without trying to be their therapist, and know when to guide them toward EAP, a GP, or helplines like Lifeline and Beyond Blue. 

If you want practical tools for burnout prevention, employee wellbeing, and building resilient teams, hit play. Then share this with a leader who needs it, subscribe on your favorite podcast app, and leave a review so more people find these conversations. What is one small act of care you will practice this week?

🌐 Connect with Graeme:
• Website: https://graemecowan.com.au/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/graemecowan1/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/graemecowan/

📚 You can purchase Graeme's book on Amazon:
• Great Leaders Care: Developing Safe, Resilient and Successful Teams: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1394389337/

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

What if one of the most important leadership skills isn't strategy, execution, or decision making? What if the real differentiator is something much simpler and much more human? And what if the well-being of your team is influenced less by the workload they're carrying and more by the way, they're being led. In today's episode of The Leadership Project, I'm joined by the amazing Graeme Cowan. Graeme is one of Australia's leading voices on mental health, resilience, and leadership. He's one of the founding directors of "R U OK Day". A movement that has really taken hold in Australia and beyond to help people break down the stigma about mental health. He's a sought-after speaker and researcher, and the author of the new book "Great Leaders Care". His work is deeply personal. After experiencing a severe period of depression that lasted several years, Graeme dedicated his life to understanding what helps people thrive, what causes people to struggle, and what leaders can do to make a positive difference. This conversation is going to be deeply personal, where Graeme shares very openly about his own experiences, so that you can learn from this and adapt as a leader who's more curious and more compassionate. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I have a special treat for you today. I'm joined by the inspirational Graeme Cowan. Graeme was one of the founding directors of "R U OK Day" and a movement that has taken on great significance in workplaces and families and circles of friends around the world around mental health he's also the author of two books back from the brink and his new book the one that we will be talking about today called "Great Leaders Care. Developing safe, resilient, and successful teams." That is what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about what does this mean. What does this mean to be a leader who cares? To debunk some of the myths about what it means to be a leader that cares, and some of the mystique that comes around it, and sometimes it's seen as a negative thing. And how do we break through some of those to develop successful teams? It doesn't have to be a compromise between being a caring leader and having a successful team. In fact, those two things go together. So, without any further ado, you don't want to hear from Mick. We want to hear from Graeme. Graeme, I'd love it if you would say hello to the audience, and I'd love it if you give us a little bit of your personal history and what inspires you to do the work that you do with, are you okay with resilience and mental health, but also with this developing leaders that care.

Graeme Cowan: 3:01

Lovely to join you, Mick? And yeah, like many people, I have a bit of an interesting journey. I started off doing marketing, I worked with Johnson and Johnson and Pfizer in marketing roles, and then I transitioned to doing recruitment, and I was involved in recruitment for probably about 10 years, and I was then chosen by the organization to lead up a new division. Which is around culture change and creating the right cultures, and I did that, had some great experiences there, particularly with a company called Ramsay Healthcare, and we might dig into that a bit later. I then moved into executive search with the global management consulting company "Carney". And did that for about five years, and I was specializing in e-commerce placements, and it was a bit of a booming time. I was in the early 2000s and then there was a tech crash, and basically our business dried up overnight. And as a leader, I was co-leading this division. I tried to put on a happy face, put on a mask every day. You don't pretend that things were going fine, but after a period I really crashed and burned and had a really serious episode of depression. I was, I had to leave work, my marriage broke down, and I had to go and live with my parents, and now often refer to that time, I don't know if your listeners are familiar with Seinfeld, but my George Costanza years, you know, living with my parents, but they really, you know, were my lifeline, and they believed me when I'd lost hope in myself. And I did gradually come out of it, took about five years, and it was a combination of walking. In reconnecting with old friends, and the real transition was writing my first book, because when you're depressed, you're really, really me-focused, or you can think about it as yourself, and how you know, miserable you are. And I remember being with my mother in the kitchen in the beachside suburb of Foster, and I was saying, "Why me, why me, why me?" And Mum hit with one of those mother stairs and said, "I believe you use this experience to help other people." And I thought it was crazy at the time, but in my recovery I thought, well, what can I do, and so I decided to write back from the brink, and it was sharing my story of, you know, crash and burning. But also sharing about another 12 stories of some everyday and small-owned people that been through the same things that led to being asked to speak in all sorts of places. Lot of speaking in the country areas where they didn't have mental health professionals, and then it transitioned to speaking to workplaces, and then to training managers on how to build a culture of care and a culture of high performance. And that's when I wrote this book, and I really believe that we need to redefine what great leadership is. You know, this whole focus on results, results, results doesn't allow sustained performance, and that's what led to me writing "Great Leaders Care".

Mick Spiers: 6:39

Yeah, really good, Graeme. So, you know, back from the brink. If I could talk about those two, when I look at it, back from the brink is a lot about survival and resilience and bouncing back yourself. And then I'm going to say "Great Leaders Care". When I look at it, it looks more preventative and looking forward and going, well, how do we prevent burnout in the first place? It's interesting, a few things that I pick up on. There, Graeme, is I want to do two, but I'll do one at a time. Your mother sharing that with you, the interesting thing there, with that burnout and that trauma that you're going through. The first thing I'm going to say is that trauma doesn't discriminate. This can happen to anyone. So, anyone listening to the show, you might be going through it yourself right now, or if you haven't experienced it yet, this could hit you at some point. This trauma doesn't discriminate, it can happen to anyone, and you can get into that cycle Graeme, of "Wow is me, of why me, why me?" And it's very sorry to say it, it's very self-centered at that point, and yet there's lots of evidence out there that says that the answer to picking ourselves up and feeling like we're needed is to have meaning in our life, and that meaning comes from being in service to other people, not the why me. So I'm gonna say that your, your mother was very wise in the words that she said, that to take this awful experience that you went through, that now makes you stronger, by the way Graeme. But then to codify that and turn around and help other people, that then instantly starts giving you purpose and helps you dust yourself off, so it's almost like a double whammy, you're going from the woe is me, why me, to being in service of other people, and the double whammy is you're helping other people. How does that sit with you?

Graeme Cowan: 8:31

Yeah, it sums up very well, Mick, and that's exactly what happened, and I wouldn't say it was an overnight recovery or anything like that, but thinking, thinking about, you know, that's the whole purpose, that book was to I really yearn for stories of people who'd been through what I was going through and back from that. And so that was really the background of the book, you know, sharing stories from a range of people, from, you know, gold medal Olympic swimmers to icons of the art world and well-known poets and everyday people, and the interesting thing is that you know it was launched at the Black Dog Institute in Sydney. Which is a very, you know, serious mental health facility aligned to the University of New South Wales, but I had John Brogden, who was the first, the former opposition leader in New South Wales, launch it, and it was he'd been through his own case of it, an attempted suicide. And you know, also came back from that, and so this was 20 years ago, and so it was very early in the era of talking more openly about mental health issues, but it just got huge coverage that night we're on the, you know, the SPS TV news, and in the aftermath it was. Really looking at about, you know, did about 20 interviews on radio stations, about three or four on TV stations, and when I did book signings and also pull back radio. I found out that most of the people that came were the loved ones of someone who was struggling, and that is my second book, which is called "Back from the Brink" to T Double O, and that was a guidance for people on how to help someone overcome that depression. But you know my purpose, and I really deliberately thought about what my purpose was, as I evolved, and it was to help people that was struggling to bounce back and thrive, that became my purpose, and it helped to guide what I was doing. And when I was, you know, feeling despondent or was having a bit of a tough day, I remind myself of that, and that made a big difference. And then my purpose has evolved, and I now say that my purpose is to help leaders to build resilient and successful teams without losing good people to burn out.

Mick Spiers: 11:10

Yeah, really good, Graeme. There's a segue I need to take now, listening to what you just said, and I'm going to share some stats, and I don't care if you've heard this before. We need to keep on talking about it, that nine, nine Australians lose their day, their life every day to suicide, and one of the alarming things is, is seven of those nine are men. And I'm not trying to make this gender specific, or there's a reason why I'm saying that, there's a trend there that you know, as men, where we're taught that we don't talk about these things. We're taught that we should be stronger, and we've got to be the strong one all the time, and therefore there's a stigma about talking about mental health. We don't talk about it, and then when I hear about you and John Brogden standing up and sharing your lived experience and sharing those stories. That it's okay to talk about these things, that it's okay to not be okay, and it's okay to share your story, because if you share your story, you might be in a room full of people that are sitting there quietly suffering, but feel like they're it's weak to ask for help. So, tell me more about once we get this, is this the answer? This is my question. Is this the answer to finally breaking the stigma around struggle and around mental health challenges that more of us need to share our story to normalize that it happens to everyone, and we need to have these conversations.

Graeme Cowan: 12:39

Yeah, it's so true. And you know, I speak not a lot now at conferences, and it's amazing what happens after I come off stage. You know, people come up, and, oh, let me tell you about this, and I can tell you that so many people have a story, and one of the real successers of argue are okay. As well, was it encouraged people to tell their stories, and there's now, you know, 1000s of stories that have been recorded on the YouTube channel of "R U OK" and it's a critical element to changing minds, to changing behaviors. If we share our story, as you said previously, it gives people permission to share their stories, and everyone has a story related to mental health, whether it's about themselves or around a loved one who's really struggling, and there still is a lot of stimulant in the workplace. Sadly, you know, are you okay? Has been going since 2009 has made a massive impact, but there's still considerable.

Mick Spiers: 13:45

Still right yeah.

Graeme Cowan: 13:47

Yeah.

Mick Spiers: 13:49

So, two takeaways I want to give to the audience at this point, Graeme. And I want to come back to my second point from before. The first one, everyone listening, that asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength. It's a sign of courage. That's the first thing we want to hear, want to want you to hear. And the second one is, the more we talk about it, the more we normalize that it's okay to talk about it, to have those dialogs, and to share your lived experience. The second part I wanted to come back to, Graeme, in your introduction. I've seen this in the workplace myself, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it, and it might be a good segue towards great leaders care. You were in a situation in your career where you were responsible for setting culture and developing the culture of these teams, etc itself. And yet you yourself was also heading towards burnout and having your own troubles. One of the things that I see, whether it's with leaders in general or specifically with people in HR. For example, that in HR they, I'm going to say it's not what they want to do, they want to, they want to spend time adding value and doing the strategic thinking and all this kind of. Up, but often they end up in that care and nurture of others situation, but who's there to help them? So, what I'm curious is about your experience when you're in the situation where you're the one trying to set the culture in a group, but quietly you were the one that needed help, and who was there for you? Tell us more about that.

Graeme Cowan: 15:21

Well, I think I was very, a very poor man. I didn't really share it. All the things you've highlighted before, I, you know, felt ashamed that I couldn't have sorted out myself. And so a big issue was that I didn't have that support network, I didn't choose to reach out to friends, and I'd been, you know, very work-focused, very focused on, you know, doing better, doing more, getting promoted. All that sort of thing, and often I would let go of, you know, good practices like regular exercise and catching up with great supportive friends, and that was what I didn't do, didn't do right, and so I'm now very, very disciplined about self care. For example, you know, I don't, not sure if you want to move on to that now. But it's become a very, very important part of how I lead my life.

Mick Spiers: 16:20

Yeah, okay, so this is going to be the good segue to the book, but just to put a pin in that kind of message, there. If you're in a senior leadership role, and, and you yourself are struggling, and you're, I know, being stoic and going, well, but I'm the one that's being the, I'm being the curator of the environment for others, and I need to look after all of these others. If you don't look after yourself first, it's going to end badly, is the key message there, which is a, which is probably the great segue to let's talk about great leaders care before we get to self care and crew care and the things that are in the book. I want to touch on something I said in the introduction, which is the misnomer, Graeme, about a caring leader is somehow soft. And you know you got to drive performance, and it's results, results, results, and yet what the evidence is showing us, and your book is showing us is that the great leaders that do care, the success still comes. This is not a choice, this is not a choice between caring and and results, it's about developing an environment that achieves sustainable results, so share, share your experiences here.

Graeme Cowan: 17:30

Yeah, and one of the things that I did, because you know, my mindset changed over a period of time, and really saw the management leader as pivotal in workplace, the team, etc. And there's a study out of the American Psychological Association, and it shows that if a leader has a sustainable life and practices good balance between work and nurturing and restoring 81% of their team members feel motivated. If a leader doesn't do that, only 38% are motivated. So, mood is contagious, and and that's why it's so important for leaders to make sure they're doing basic things to boost their mood, and another thing that I talk about very much is a mood or meter. And this came from my psychiatrist, you know, he'd asked me to rate my mood every time, and I wonder, I said "Why do you ask, you know, why do you keep asking this?" I said, "What" and he said, "Well, it helps me to understand where you are, you know, from your perspective, and that's important knowledge, but I also believe you should be able to manage your mood, and also maybe master it." And I was a bit put off, I put off by that, and said, "Well, have I got a clinical illness?" and he said, "Yes, you have, but I believe that everyone can learn how to manage their mood." That set me on a quest, and it turns out that, I guess, not surprisingly, he was right, and there's a Professor Sonia Lieber Mickey, who's at the University of California, and she did a book, it of "The How of Happiness". And looked at over 400 peer-reviewed studies, and she found that our mood, or what psychologists call positive effect, comes down to just three things. It comes down to, it comes down to our genetics, our circumstances, and what's happening, and our intentional actions each day, and most people are quite surprised to find that our genetics contribute 50% towards our mood. Some people are just born more robust, more resilient than others. Us, but the really positive thing is, is that 40% is then determined by our intentional actions, what we choose to do each day, and only 10% by circumstances. So that's a wonderful insight for any leader to know that you know if you want to be in a positive mood, you have to have the right actions each day to do that.

Mick Spiers: 20:23

Oh, this is really powerful. There's two key takeaways there. The mood is contagious. I've not thought of it in that way, but it's really interesting. We do have mirror neurons, and we bounce off each other all the time, and quite often it's the leader that is setting the tone, so if you're turning up every day frustrated, you know, I could put all kinds of adjectives here, Graeme. Then that's going to get contagious. If you're showing and role modeling the behaviors of self-care, that's going to get contagious. So, that's a really powerful message there straight away, Graeme. Now, this 40% you've got my attention here. I can tell you what jumps straight in my head is the difference between a victim mindset and a creator mindset, and it's often that choice is that stimulus that happened, that thing that happened to you. People use this language all the time, that thing that happened to you, that's not in your control, that's the 10% Graeme's talking about, 40% is in your control. How you respond, how you and listen to the words Graeme used. How you intentionally respond is in your control. So you can choose to have a victim mindset and go, "Wow is me" and you know this always happens, and go negative, or you can go, "Well, how am I going to respond? What can I do with what I have from where I am, and make an intentional response?" How does that sit with you?

Graeme Cowan: 21:47

Well, it's just right, you know, and all the all the evidence shows that, and I think the other thing that I consciously did. Because I'm out of the woods now, I still have every now and again I have some real, you know, feel the anxiety, have early morning awakening, that sort of stuff. But my immediate action now is to do two things. One is to set an appointment with my psychiatrist, and it can often be a year since I last spoke to him, but also then share it with my wife and two other mates, and they know that my history of what I've been through. But they also had their own issues, they had their own ups and downs, as we all have, and there's just very something very powerful of being able to speak your truth and take action with the professional and the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our life, and you know investing time in those relationships is such an important thing for a leader to do, that could be a work colleague, but it could, you know, be a private friend as well, particularly a private friend who might be in a similar role or a similar leadership position that can give a bit of perspective and add some insight there.

Mick Spiers: 23:10

Yeah, really good. The power of these relationships, where it comes from. But then I, what I'm taking away here, Graeme, or what's bouncing in my head is that you're then there for each other

Graeme Cowan: 23:19

100% yeah.

Mick Spiers: 23:20

And you have seasons of ups and downs, but you're in it together. And you gotta support each other, whoever that person is yeah.

Graeme Cowan: 23:28

And the other thing is, is that men aren't really talking good at talking face to face. We're almost better at doing that, especially talking about tough times. So, by getting together with rituals each week to get together with, you know, different mates, but you're walking shoulder to shoulder, and somehow it's easier to talk and be more honest, more frank by doing that, and you're also getting good exercise as well. So it's a, it's a win-win.

Mick Spiers: 23:59

Oh, I like this. This is a big tip. I've got to say, a lot of people would have said what they might have defaulted to is go for a beer or go for a coffee together, but then you're facing each other and it becomes a bit, never say it becomes a bit real, and it becomes a bit daunting. It's always real. Daunting is the word I was looking for. I like this idea of walking shoulder to shoulder, you can know it feels freeing, and you're also getting some physical exercise at the same time, which we know that that impacts your, your well-being, as your mental well-being, not your physical, not just your physical well-being, but it impacts your mental wellbeing as well. This is a good tip. So, if you've been wanting to reach out to a friend, I'm going to. this is a mini call to action here, Graeme. If you've been wanting to reach out for a friend and do some of the things that Graeme's talking about, think about going for a walk together. This is powerful, Graeme. All right, I want to get into some other practical things. So, in your book, you talk about three pillars, and that's the ones I want to unpack. Now, we've been talking about self-care. And we're not done with that one yet. Then we're going to talk about crew care, and then you talk about this thing called red zone care, which has really got my curiosity as well. So, in this self-care, and you spoke about the mood omega before, how do you use that? How does someone use this mood omega in a daily practice? What does it mean?

Graeme Cowan: 25:21

I do have a mood out mood on to action plan? It's a one page poster, which I'd be happy to share with your audience, and basically it's, you know, red, amber, green, and it's guidance. If you're in the red zone, these are the five things you need to do to move yourself to the Amazon, if you're in the Amazon. These are the five things to get to the green zone. If in the green zone, these are things you have to do to stay there. And you know, just really asking, you know, if you think about your life now, 10 is the best you've ever been, and it's, you know, you know that you're in great shape, you're good for the people around you, as well, your family, your work colleagues, etc etc. And then it comes down to the Amazon, and particularly around five is when you're feeling anxiety very regularly, and but you still remember the good times, and whereas it comes down to the red zone, and you spend some time in the red zone, you think you've always been there. You can't remember good times, and so it's a good insight to have, if you've been feeling really down or depressed for a long period of time, you're not thinking straight. You really aren't, you have a very close view of your life, because you can't remember the good times before, and so most important thing is to be able to recognize your early warning signs and take corrective action, and people have different early warning signs, you know, for me it's early morning awakening, not being able to get back to sleep, it's you know, feeling a sense of anxiety a lot, a lot of the time, basically. And each week, you know, I look at the last week over, you know, a one week planner, and I consider about, you know, I love this, you know, the famous American poet Maya Angelou, and she says "Success is liking yourself, liking what you do, and liking how you do it." Such a simple thing, but it really does encapsulate what's important to you, so it's not what other people's definition of success is, do I like myself? Do I like what I do? You know, again, that's a bit of the purpose stuff, and then how I'm doing it, and so thinking about that helps you also to think about the mood omega. Those three questions can help to add a bit of flesh to it, and then based on that, you plan the week ahead.

Mick Spiers: 27:59

Okay, so two major things I'm talking here. I like the Maya Angelou stuff. So, do I like myself? I'm going to convert that in. Am I proud of myself? Am I proud of myself? Do I like what I'm doing? That's the purpose, and that it's got some kind of meaning. And do I like how I'm doing it? I'm going to, what I'm taking away from that, Graeme, is little bit of a check in to go, are my behaviors congruent with my values, and if I'm slipping into a trap of starting to do some behaviors that I wouldn't be proud of, that an incongruent with my values, I start, start kind of, I know something never feels right when you're doing something that's incongruent with your values. Do I like how I'm doing it, then on the mood omega, the thing that struck me, Graeme, was the early warning signs, and I started playing out, you know, examples that I've seen in my life of a high-flying individual that was seemingly on the outside was soaring, was brilliant, and then absolutely crashed. The burnout was fall off a cliff burnout, kind of thing, like, and really capitulated at that point, and you make what you got me thinking is, I wonder what the early signs would have been, so, so, if they had have been noticing and naming "Oh, I haven't been sleeping well lately, like you, like you said, I'm waking up with these troubles in the morning, or I'm struggling to get to sleep at night." Whatever it is for you, you need, I guess, you need to notice and name your own baseline mood and your baseline behavior, and when things that are out of character start to creep in, to notice them early. When you're, I'm going to say, when you're in the amber zone, before you get to the red zone, is that, is that the right thing? And then take action early, not wait until you fall off the cliff, take action.

Graeme Cowan: 29:49

Yeah, the Amazons, you can move up really quickly back to the green zone. In the red zone, it can be very long and very. Attracted, so I had in my previous book, back from the brink, I interviewed a guy who was the Director of Public Affairs for Google, based in Washington. A guy called Bob Bornstein, and he'd lived with bipolar all his life, but he said, and it's another way of thinking about it, you need to be your own therapist, and that didn't mean that you didn't seek professional help at all. What he meant was you need to be able to recognize your early triggers, and then take appropriate action.

Mick Spiers: 30:33

Yeah, really good, Graeme. This is a powerful takeaway. I want to just, as a segue towards, I want to go to crew care now, but just a final one on self care, and I'm encouraging people to go and get the book and read this yourself, but the other things to look at is it's what we're talking about here is all of the elements of wellbeing, so psychological wellbeing, physical wellbeing, emotional wellbeing, career wellbeing. Having your finger on the pulse, notice a name where you're at on all of these areas. Okay, so I think we've covered this enough for now, Graeme. Although I feel like we could talk about it for 27 hours, the importance of self care. The leader then needs to shift it onto your second pillar, which is crew care. How do we shift then our mind from self care to crew care, and what does that mean?

Graeme Cowan: 31:23

I think it's about wanting to create a great environment, a great team dynamic, and you know. I often ask people to think about a great team they've been part of, you know, as part of Value, okay, and grew, helped to grow from just an idea to what it's become today, and that you know, I think about that, I think about the critical success factors. Was a great vision, which was a conversation could change a life, and that was a brilliant tagline by Gavin Larkin. But sorry, I lost my train of thought. What was the question you asked? Sorry, could I get back to that?

Mick Spiers: 32:00

I'll just prompt you and say, yeah, what does it feel like when you're in one of those exhilarating teams where everything is working? Remember what that feels like. So back to you.

Graeme Cowan: 32:10

Yeah, I've asked people in my keynotes and workshops to think of a great team they've been part of. It could have been, you know, the current role, previous role, when they worked in a, were in a sports team, or when they worked at McDonald's, and what made that difference, and I have to discuss it in, you know, two threes or fours. And you see the energy rise in the room as they recall these teams and talk to each other about that, and then if it's a, you know, a large audience. I asked them to think about, you know, that think of a few things that were core to it. What was it? And then do a live anonymous poll, you know, with Menti, and there's like 10 qualities there, like, you know, compelling vision, complimentary strengths, etc. etc. But in 95% of the cases, the top three are we cared about each other, we had each other's back, and we encouraged each other, and these are all very human things, aren't they? They're about a human dynamic that is good, positive, and productive.

Mick Spiers: 33:21

Yeah, really good. So the elements I'm coming up with there, you know, a shared, you're coming together around some kind of shared purpose. That vision is pulling you all in a, in a common direction, and it's one that's meaningful. But just this, we're in it together, and we got each other's back. And if I can, I'm going to, I'm going to talk about what is the opposite. We hear about, you know, toxic workplaces, and what do toxic workplaces look like? The exact opposite of everything you just said, where everyone feels like I don't trust this person, they're out, they're out to stab me in the back, they're undermining me, they're doing all of this, but the ones that you remember, that were, yeah, that was an awesome experience. Everyone felt like they had each other's back. I think that's it, Graeme. I think you've, I think you've nailed it here. So, as a link, what do we do with that?

Graeme Cowan: 34:13

Yeah, well, there are there's three components, which I talk about in the book, and the first is, is that belonging is about caring and belonging is so important, and helping people to feel connected with their colleagues can make a massive difference. And I can just use a sporting analogy, or a sporting story, you know, in Melbourne, there's a very successful team called the, you know, the Richmond Tigers, but in 2016 they just went horribly in the competition. They came third or fourth last, and so the Coach Damien Hardwick, was really devastated, and you know it was he'd had previous success as a player and a coach, but at the end of that year, Who's my. Cro-managing, he hated the players, hated, and he went over to the US. His father said, "Well, this doesn't define you, go and have an explore." And he met a coach over there that told him about "The 3H's" and "The 3H's" are our life highlights hardships and heroes. And that came back, and in the first meeting with the entire team, he shared his three actions, and you know highlights the previous one on premiership, and you know when his kids were born, and you know, talked about two, three of those things. His hardship was last year, the one that he could really remember, and how that made him feel, and how it made them feel, and and then he talked about his hero, and in that case it was his father, you know, who told him this doesn't define you. Reset, come back and see how you're going now. In that player and coach and support team, there was 45 people, and each of those people had a chance to talk about their three axes, and some of them were really embarrassing, you know, like, you know, a few had grown up in housing commission homes and talked about being embarrassed to invite friends home. But it created this incredible trust and support and psychological safety, and literally in one year they won the premiership from being absolutely devastated the year before. So what that was about was just creating incredible connection and trust. It was also about creating the second tier, which is leading with psychological safety, where you make it safe for people to be themselves, you make it safe for people to make suggestions, you make it safe for people to challenge an idea they don't. They don't agree with, and then the third element is growing together. You know, encouraging each other to take intelligent risks to better serve their customers or their colleagues, and if it doesn't work out, reset quickly. Work out, learn what we learned from this, and let's go again, and the right team helps to make that happen, and a leader contributes 70% of that, according to Gallup, to that engagement and well-being of the team, but everyone can play a role in helping to make that happen,

Mick Spiers: 37:44

Really good, Graeme. So, three pillars here, so this need for belonging, the need for psychological safety, and this want to grow together. So, it's the belonging, wanting to feel like we belong to something bigger than ourselves, that's important, and that other people have got our back, they care about me, the psychological safety. The ability to speak up without the fear of judgment, and I can say what's on my mind in a respectful way, and and then growing together, and the thread that I was pulling there Graeme, is that I was picking from you was the rituals of sharing. The rituals of sharing that, if you have these rituals, where you can have these conversations about, "Oh, what are your highlights, what are your hardships, who are your heroes.?" That it makes it very human that people are sharing openly their story, and in those stories everyone would be sitting there going, "Oh, you're a bit more similar to me than I thought you were." And you find those things that you can bond over, that you can connect over. I didn't know that you grew up in housing commission, so did I, or you know, whatever those points of connection are, and it feels like it makes it human. And if you have those rituals on, on the openly sharing about each other, all of a sudden it's very hard, very easy to have the psychologically safe, challenging conversations. The conversation that you might have been avoiding, that everyone needs to talk about, but now you feel like you're in a safe environment where you can have that conversation. How does that sit with you?

Graeme Cowan: 39:15

Yeah, you know, you've summed it up really well, and I think it just creates a strong bond. And you know we're all always stronger together than trying to sort it out ourselves, but you need to have the dynamic to help to make that happen. And there was another example, you know, of that journey for Richmond, and it was a young player, 21 years old, or just he had his 21st birthday, and he invited all the people, but he lived in Bendigo, which is, you know, an hour and a half order from Melbourne, and so I thought, you know, four or five of my good mates have come along, every person, every person in the playing group and the coach support group went to that birthday, and you. Know, just incredible trust it grew over that year, and you know many people have had that in a tune they've been in, but you know the challenge is to then how can you help to make it happen again? What are the steps you can do to make a difference?

Mick Spiers: 40:17

Yeah, really good. All right, and we're in it together for each other, really good. All right, so let's take us to the third pillar. We, we need to talk about this as well. See, what you talk about red zone care. So, we've talked about self care, crew care in your book. You also talk about red zone care. What does that mean, and how does that show up in terms of our responsibilities as a leader?

Graeme Cowan: 40:39

Really comes back to the moodometer, which you've talked about before, and all three pillars, too. You know, self care is about keeping yourself in the green zone, crew cares about keeping your team in the green zone, red zone care is about being able to identify and best support someone who's struggling, and as you would know, Mick, there's massive challenges at the workplace today. There's the AI revolution, which is turning workplaces upside down. Middle East war is creating lots of uncertainty and changes in costs, the cost of living crisis. So, there's many, many challenging people for that. Red zone care is, you know, where you start to feel symptoms for more than four or five days in a row, and those symptoms could include anxious all the time, it could include a racing mind, it could include not being able to concentrate, it could include libido going down, and they all happen in life, but the medical care tells you if it happens sort of six days in a row, then you need to really think about it and take action. So we talked before about our triggers that we recognize, but you know it's always good when you get think you could be approaching that red zone to share it with friends and family, but also to seek professional help.

Mick Spiers: 42:07

Let's talk about this professional help. This is something I specifically like about "R U OK Day" by the way. But I want to walk away with this, both for myself and for the audience, with some good tips on how to do what I'm about to say, Graeme. One of the things that we need to overcome, if we're going to have these conversations with people, we're going to reach out to someone and say, "Are you okay?" and be there for them, is we need to overcome any fear of doing so. We need to normalize that it's that we have these conversations, and the words, how are you, are not just a greeting, it's a question that we're taking a genuine interest in each other, leaning into that. But knowing that I'm leaning into it, that I'm not a professional psychologist, I'm not a licensed therapist, etc. But then knowing that if I'm in a conversation with my friend and I can see I'm going to call it the red zone signs, and I'm not a professional. At what point do I go hang on a second? I need to encourage action here for the person to go and talk to Lifeline or Beyond Blue or their EAP Program in the workplace. How do we know it's two things? How do we overcome the fear that yes, you're not a psychologist, and we don't expect you to be. But you need to have the conversation, and then how do you know in the conversation to go, oh, wow, this is beyond me. You need to talk to someone and encourage them to take that action, Graeme.

Graeme Cowan: 43:35

Yeah, and I really like to reinforce what you just said there about you're not meant to be a therapist, you're not meant to be able to provide great professional support, but emotional support and emotional support is a huge benefit. It really is, and just by asking that question, listening with empathy, keeping on asking open-ended questions, the more they feel understood, the more likelihood that they will then take action when you suggest it. So, in terms of just giving your readers, I guess, say, guide, and I've got a poster on this, which is on the back of the mood operator posters, I'll send that to you as well, but it's how to support a teammate in distress, and it's an acronym I care. So the first thing is identify, and that's looking for changes, you know, changes in mood, changes in reliability, changes in appearance, changes in punctuality, changes, changes in life circumstances, going through a divorce or financial problems. The next thing "C" is for compassion and putting yourself in their shoes and making an observation about the changes you've seen, like I noticed you're not coming. To the par, bond first, or not like we used to. It's not like you, are you okay? Is everything okay? And to be honest, that's more successful than asking, are you okay up front? Because the natural response is, "Yeah, I'm fine" but if you talk about something specific, it improves, increases the chance it can go deeper, and you know, men often jump in and try to solve the problem quickly. You know, you should do this, this, and this, but yet, as I mentioned before, getting people to speak and to share what's really going on, like it could be someone turning up late for work, but you probe and you find out that they're not sleeping well. You probe further, and you find that you know that he's got a son who's an ice addict, and he's driving around town all night to try and find him. So, finding out what the root cause is can really help. Then the next cell Element "A" is to access experts, so this is, you know, calling EAP, calling a helpline, seeing a GP, doing a self test. You know, both the on blue and black dog are for self test for anxiety, depression, bipolar. So, you know, getting some further insight. Those self tests can say, "Yeah, look, I really need to take action here." And it can be done by, you know, ringing a helpline, you know, there's lots of good help lines out there, you know, Lifeline, Beyond Blue, Suicide Callback Service, Men's Line is one specifically for men and their issues, they're getting the access experts. The "R" is for revitalizing work, and in most situations, the science of recovery tells us that people are better off being connected with their work mates than sitting at home by themselves. There's exceptions to that, you know. There might be a doctor that says you really need to have a week off, and you have to listen to that, but in most situations, it's better to be connected with your work mates, even if it's for less time working, less hours working, or less commitments. And then the final element is the exercise, you know, are they going for a walk each day, or swimming, or cycling, or whatever, and those five things that I just talked about can help to guide questions, so you can ask people if you shared it with people around that you're struggling. Have you spoken to someone about it that you trust? Are you exercising? Are you enjoying work? What are you know, trying to really identify and suggest actions, and by listening with empathy, you know, you might find out that the root cause is really financial distress, you know, husbands lost his job, we're in financial financial difficulties, so could then be the right action could be to go and see a financial advisor or an accountant, but yeah, there's an amazing story in the book by a bike called Bob Chapman, ran a company called "Barry Way Miller" in the US, grew it from 20 million to 3.6 billion, and yeah, tragically he just died. He was 80, but amazing, an amazing leader. He wrote a book called "Everybody Matters" which I strongly encourage people to care. But he said he used to think caring was going to talk to people, but he discovered that it was actually listening with empathy. And he found that breakthrough so profound that they end up putting together a listening with empathy course, they designed their own, every person went to it was a day course, and people not only said it transformed their workplace, it transformed their private life as well, being able to learn those skills of listening with empathy.

Mick Spiers: 49:01

Yeah, really good, Graeme. So, if I recap the framework, so I care. Identify compassion, access, access experts, revitalizing work, and then exercise. It's a good frame, I'm going to say, to have these conversations, but the big takeaway for me, Graeme, is that you're not listening to solve their problem, don't go into problem-solving mode. You're listening with empathy, and if I can, I want to add one and say you're listening without judgment, and you're not there to, you're not there to give them professional support, you're there to give them emotional support. That was the key takeaway that I took. And then the encouraging action is, once you've got a bit of a frame of understanding what's going on, that's when you can encourage action. "Oh, you need to talk to a financial advisor, or you need to talk to a professional therapist, or whatever the case maybe. But you've, but you've given them a, I'm going to say a good damn listening to before you even got to that point. Yeah, really good guy. All right, so. So I'm going to draw us to a close now. I'm going to just to summarize some really key points, Graeme. And then we'll come to our final four questions of the interview. So you know great leaders care that caring is not softer, it's not the opposite of performance, it's actually what creates sustainable performance, and it starts with these three pillars, and the first one, it starts with you. It starts with that self-care, using this mood omega, so that you understand that you notice and name your mood, and any changes in mood, and the sooner you find the early signs, the sooner you can take action, and as Graeme emphasized, if you move, if you're in the amber zone, it's much easier to get back to the great green zone than if you wait until you're in the red zone. So that's the key call to action there. Mood ometer, notice and name your mood, and look for early signs before it becomes something much worse. The crew care, then that you're responsible for creating an area of belonging of psychological safety, where the team knows, likes, and trusts each other, and they feel that they've got each other back, each other's back. You're responsible for that culture and creating that. And then the red zone care, when someone does get into this situation, that you're there to help them, but what you're there to help them do is to give them that emotional support to listen to them, to listen with empathy, to listen without judgment, and then to encourage action. This has been a wonderful conversation, Graeme. Thank you so much for sharing all of these insights, and they're things that we all need to take action on. This is not a build your knowledge podcast team. This is a listen to Graeme, and if you're self-identifying from the things that we are talking about, don't just walk away from this podcast feeling wiser. Walk away from this podcast and actually do something. Take, take some action, either with yourself in self-care or with your team around the crew care.

Graeme Cowan: 52:04

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Mick Spiers: 52:07

All right, thanks, Graeme. All right, so let's go to our final four questions. These are the same questions we ask all of our guests. So, what's the one thing that you know now, Graeme Cowan, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Graeme Cowan: 52:20

I think it was the importance of nurturing strong relationships with, of course, your family, but also to make sure that you develop those with friends, and there's three key elements of that. One is that you, it's a positive experience. Why would you meet with this time if it wasn't a positive experience, but it's a good way to have a first filter. Second thing is you do it consistently, and you have rituals that mean you catch up with people regularly. And then the third element is that you're comfortable to be vulnerable, and this is the part that is often missing from particularly male relationships. You're comfortable saying when things aren't working out, when you're having issues, that knowing that now, like since my breakdown, I've, you know, just really deliberately built those strong relationships, and the evidence shows that the longest well beings ever done "The Harvard Adult Development Study" shows that the best predictor of a long life, a happy life, a more affluent life, a longer sex life is having those strong and supportive relationships around us.

Mick Spiers: 53:32

Yeah, really powerful. Thank you, thank you, Graeme. And that's a call to action for everyone as well. When was the last time you like the consistency was the big one for me with what you just said. I do have a really good circle of a small but good circle of friends, but I don't think I'm consistent enough with that reach out graph. Okay, what's your favorite book?

Graeme Cowan: 53:54

There's a lot of great business books, but one that I read quite regularly is "Man's Search for Meaning" and I'm reading at the moment. Actually, I've probably read it 10 times. And for your listeners, it's a story by Victor Frankel, who was a German Psychiatrist and Jewish, and you know, was imprisoned in Auschwitz and other concentration camps, and he was 1 of only 28, 1 in 28 survive, and he tried to look at what led to people increasing their chances surviving, and it was having a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning in life. You know, it could have been as simple as looking forward to seeing and getting together with your wife or kids again, it could be as simple as playing your beloved piano again, and the other really key messages in that book. It's a short read, it's only like an afternoon, but you learn about concentration camps, you learn about insights, but probably the biggest insight. That he added was that no matter what happens, you can choose how you respond, and that was something that could be never taken away from people in concentration. You can choose how to respond to difficult as well as good regular senses.

Mick Spiers: 55:18

Yeah, really good. That's so consistent with everything we've spoken about today. Graeme, yeah. Thank you. What's your favorite quote?

Graeme Cowan: 55:25

The Maya Angelou one, you know, "Success is liking yourself, liking what you do, and liking how you do it." Origin is brilliant.

Mick Spiers: 55:33

Brilliant, and great takeaway in today's discussion as well. And finally, Graeme, how do people find you? There's going to be people, just like I said, that are listening to this, going, "Wow, this Graeme guy sounds like he's talking about me and my team." How do people find you? How do people find your books, and how do they take advantage of your services or your speaking? All of the above.

Graeme Cowan: 55:54

I'm very active on LinkedIn, so please feel free to reach out on LinkedIn. I share regularly there. I have a newsletter each week through that, so that's probably my most active social media. My website, of course, which is graemecowan.com.au and you know, in terms of the book, it's available everywhere at the moment, it's even in airport bookstores featured in airport bookstores, and Book Tropia just made the book great leaders care its business book of the month, which was lovely to see.

Mick Spiers: 56:28

Right. Well, thank you so much, Graeme. What I want to say is two things to you, one is congrats on the success of the book, and that's that's wonderful, but more importantly, I just want to say thank you, and to express gratitude to you on behalf of many 1000s of people that you've impacted their lives of, whether it's through "R U OK Day". Which has been an incredible success in getting people to have these conversations, or through your books, or through sharing your story, so others feel that that they can also openly share their story all the way through to your practical frameworks on what people can do about it. This work is so important, Graeme, and I just want to thank you on behalf of many 1000s of people for everything that you do. Thank you, and thank you for your time today and sharing this on the show today as well. Thank you.

Graeme Cowan: 57:22

Thanks, Mick. I really enjoyed that talk.

Mick Spiers: 57:26

What an important conversation that was with Graeme Cowan. This episode reminded me that leadership is ultimately a human endeavor. Yes, results matter. Yes, performance matters, but performance becomes much harder to sustain when people are exhausted, disconnected, overwhelmed, or struggling in silence. A few key lessons really stood out for me. First, self-care comes before crew care. As Graeme said, leaders cannot pour from an empty cup, the energy, mood, and well-being of a leader inevitably ripple through the team around them. Second, caring leadership is not about lowering standards, it's about creating the conditions where people can consistently perform at their best. Third, noticing matters. Many people don't need us to solve their problems. They need us to notice that something has changed. Ask a thoughtful question and create space for a genuine conversation. And finally, leadership is often expressed through small moments, a check-in, a question, a conversation, a simple act of care. These moments can have a bigger impact than we realize. So, let me leave you with a few questions to reflect on. How would your team describe your energy and mood right now? Who in your team might benefit from a conversation you've been putting off, and what could you do this week to better care for yourself, so that you can better care for others. This week, I encourage you to choose one person and have a genuine check-in conversation, not a project update, not a status meeting, a real human conversation. Ask how they're doing, and then truly listen, truly listen, and give them space to express whatever it is that's that's going on in their life, and listen without judgment. I encourage you to inspire action if there is something that's holding them back or something that they're struggling with, encourage them to reach out to a professional if they do need help. Thank you for joining us for another episode of The Leadership Project. Next week, we're welcoming back a return guest, Huw Thomas. In his first appearance on the show, Huw You've been listening to The Leadership project. If today helped us understand change at an individual level, exploring sparked an insight, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with one other person who would benefit from listening to the show. A huge thank you to Gerald Calibo for his tireless work fear. Identity uncertainty, and what happens when people are editing every episode, and to my amazing wife Sei, who does all the heavy lifting in the background to make this show possible. None of this happens without them. Around here, we believe leadership is a practice, not a position, that asked to step into the unknown. This time we're taking the people should feel seen, heard, valued, and that they matter. That the best leaders trade ego for empathy, certainty for curiosity, and control for trust. If that resonates with conversation to the organizational level and you, please subscribe on YouTube, and on your favorite podcast app. And if you want more, follow me on LinkedIn, and managing change throughout an organization. explore our archives for conversations that move you from knowing to doing. Until next time, lead with curiosity, courage, and care.