293. Overcoming Feedback Fears with Jeff Hancher

What if the toughest conversation on your calendar is the very thing that unlocks respect, growth, and retention? We sit down with leadership expert and best-selling author Jeff Hancher to demystify feedback and turn a dreaded chore into a repeatable system for building high-trust, high-performance teams.

Jeff shares a clear framework for setting expectations and choosing the right feedback style for the moment: directive when safety or standards are on the line, collaborative when you need ownership from a seasoned pro, and supportive when a proven performer hits a dip. We talk through common blockers—fear of fallout, emotional reactions, and not knowing how to start—and replace them with practical language leaders can use today. You’ll hear how to earn the right to be candid through steady “deposits,” why annual reviews create blind spots, and how weekly one-on-ones become the engine of engagement.

Along the way, Jeff’s personal story shows the power of firm feedback delivered with care. A manager who held the line and held space changed his trajectory—and his loyalty—forever. We explore how to move from people pleasing to respect, how to ask questions that reveal self-awareness, and why withholding feedback is unfair to the person and the business. Expect simple phrases, a cadence you can sustain all year, and a playbook for confident, compassionate conversations that actually change behavior.

Ready to trade avoidance for impact? Press play, then share this episode with a leader who avoids tough talks. If it resonated, follow the show, leave a quick review, and tell us which feedback style you’ll try first. Your team will thank you.

🌐 Connect with Jeff:
• Website: https://www.jeffhancher.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-hancher/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeff.hancher/

📚 You can purchase Jeff's book on Amazon:
• Firm Feedback in a Fragile World: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DV4N8DN8/

Chapters

• 0:01 Framing The Feedback Problem
• 0:18 Meet Jeff Hancher And His Story
• 4:56 Why Tough Talks Build Respect
• 7:15 Fragile World, Firm Feedback
• 10:07 Overcoming FEAR Of Feedback
• 15:05 People Pleasing Vs Respect
• 18:10 Assertive Leadership Defined
• 21:05 Continuous Feedback Beats Annual Reviews
• 24:00 Time Investment And ROI Of Leadership
• 27:20 Earning The Right To Be Candid
• 30:00 Three Feedback Styles Explained
• 33:00 Collaborative Questions That Change Behavior
• 35:30 Supportive Feedback And Humanity
• 38:00 Rapid Round: Lessons, Books, Quotes
• 41:00 Resources, Workshops, And Book
• 44:00 Host Summary And Action Steps
• 49:00 Closing Credits And Next Episode Tease

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Do your people truly know what great looks like? When performance slips, do you default to silence, sarcasm, or scattered hints instead of real feedback? And what would change if you had a simple framework for the right kind of conversations every time? Today I'm joined by Jeff Hancher, leadership expert and best-selling author of Firm Feedback in a Fragile World. We unpack the three feedback styles, directive, collaborative, and supportive, and when to use feed, how to set expectations, and how to hold space for the human in front of you while still holding the standard. You'll leave with language you can use today and a cadence you can sustain all year. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Jeff Hancher. Jeff is a leadership expert and the author, the best-selling author of a book called Firm Feedback in a Fragile World. And that's what we're going to talk about today. This is a common weakness in most leaders, and I'm going to stick up my own hand and say that I struggle with giving feedback. Even starting the conversation is something that I've struggled with throughout my career. So I'm really interested to dig into this and get some practical insights that I will take away from today's show. And I know that you will learn a lot as well. So without any further ado, Jeff, I'd love it if you'd say hello to the audience. Give us a little flavor of your background and what inspired you to do the work that you do today and to write this book.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39

Well, Mick, first off, thanks for having me on the show. And uh hello to the listener. I love being on Leadership Podcast because here's what we know. If you're listening to this podcast, you absolutely mean business. Uh, you want to grow, you want to get better. You know, what led me to doing what I'm doing and what has maybe led to writing of the book is my own journey. I grew up in gross poverty. I had two parents that never worked a day in my life, a mom that battled a terminal disease, and a dad that battled chronic osteoarthritis. And uh, you know, this led to a very, very tough upbringing and uh a lot of bad decisions, a very dysfunctional teenage life, a life of crime, a life of alcoholism and violence. And uh, I just wasn't a good person, Mick. And I I graduate high school. Uh, I'm gonna go to the military. I become a U.S. Army soldier because I just wanted out of all the dysfunction. And the military really helped me grow up. Uh, I transitioned from the military. I'm gonna go to university. And just prior to starting at university, I get a call from my dad that told me they were sending my mom home to die. And uh, we needed to get nurses set up. He was getting his leg amputated at the time. And uh I did everything I could to help them, and I just needed to find a seasonal job to help pay bills. And I ended up becoming a truck driver at a uniform delivery company, and that seasonal job turned into a 25-year career, of which uh I got promoted 12 times into a Fortune 500 company here in the United States. And I'd love to tell you it's because I'm amazing, but the reality is I had some amazing leaders around me. And so I learned the value of leadership. Five years ago, I left that amazing company to dedicate myself the rest of my life to pouring into leaders and investing in leaders and helping them make big impact on others as well.

SPEAKER_00: 3:40

Well, thank you, Jeff, for sharing so openly. And sorry that you went through that in your life, but I'm going to say glad that you're with us today to show us that you can come out the other side out of trouble. Like trauma doesn't discriminate, it can happen to anyone, and it's those that are resilient and that can come through the other end that can come through stronger. So thank you for sharing that story with us. I'm also pleased to hear what you said about paying attention to the leaders around you. And I think too often we go through life on autopilot and not noticing naming and learning from both the strengths and weaknesses, the positives and the mistakes of the leaders around us. Unfortunately, not all leaders are great leaders. You've had some great role models, which is excellent, but I'm sure you've had some poor leaders at times as well. But if we're not paying attention, we're not actually learning lessons from those leaders. We're not picking up the things to replicate and the things not to replicate in our own leadership style. So tell me more about what you learned from those leaders around you.

SPEAKER_01: 4:49

You know, what I've learned, uh there's common ground with great leadership. And um, the good thing about leadership is it is learned. I think personality does play a part in that. But I will tell you the greatest leaders that I've been around that have shaped me the most is the leaders that have earned the right to have the tough conversations. Um, you know, there's a lot of different leadership styles. We have the aggressives, we have the passives, uh, we have the assertives, which is where we want to be. But I will tell you this. Uh, what we know is we grow through feedback. And what I find today more and more is that leaders are kind of tiptoeing around the tough conversations. When I look around and I think of, you know, the leaders that have had the biggest impact on me, and and I I bet the I bet the audience would also say the same thing, which is this the leaders that have had the biggest impact on our life, they were probably the toughest on us. But if you were to think of those four leaders, even that have had the biggest impact on your life, although they were tough, you never questioned if they cared. And so I think there's a framework here that we can be tough on people, but we have to earn the right. When we earn the right to be tough on people, we transcend from being a boss that people report to to becoming a leader that people don't want to let down. Those four leaders that impacted your life the most, these were people that you didn't want to let down. So I think it starts with deposits and it ends with withdrawals. But big deposits allow us to make big withdrawals. And I think that is uh some common ground of the leaders that have made the biggest impact on me.

SPEAKER_00: 6:33

Yeah, I'm gonna say I'm sitting there listening to you, Jeff, and I can echo it straight away. And I was I was thinking about some of my great leaders that I've had. They did earn that respect. I'll say that for sure. They told me what I needed to hear, and I wouldn't be able to fix the things that they told me if they didn't bring it to my attention. If it was a blind spot, I can't fix what I don't know about. But they always did it because they cared about me, not because they didn't care. They weren't, they didn't wake up in the morning and rub their hands together and go, right, what can I do to upset Mick today? No, they were doing it because they cared about me. Absolutely, absolutely. So tell me the words on the book. Firm feedback in a fragile world.

SPEAKER_01: 7:17

Yeah, well, uh, look, it's fragile. We, you know, we have the likes of quiet quitting uh that's costing the global economy upwards of$9 trillion a year. Recent polling is telling us that 65% of managers agree uh that they give effective feedback, but when their subordinates were asked the same question, only 21% of them agreed that they have received meaningful feedback even in the last week. You have uh retention of top talent is harder than it's ever been. Attracting top talent is more challenging than it's ever been. Succession planning in our businesses is is very difficult and challenging. We don't want to rock the boat. And as leaders, we've all been in that scenario where we had to have a tough conversation, and we can kind of feel our chest tighten and our our palms start sweating. And my gosh, if I had this hard conversation, they might quit, uh, they might cry, they might get offended, they might get hurt. That's the fragile side of the world that we live in. But what we know is if we can, if we can, despite all of those challenges, earn the right to give firm feedback, this is how retention is done. This is how people grow into becoming their best and reaching their fullest potential. And as far as recruiting top talent, the greatest recruiting strategy on planet Earth is leaders. People will follow great leaders. Great leaders are magnetic. I tell leaders all the time, Mick, you will attract who you are, not what you want. When we can give leaders the confidence and the framework to have a tough conversation, this is the rising tide that lifts all ships. This is how great cultures are built.

SPEAKER_00: 9:07

Yeah, you're really good, Jeff. When you said fragile world, that's not what was instantly jumping into my head, but it's really interesting. So the the three things that are jumping into my mind here is about the avoidance, which I want to unpack first, so that the leaders are avoiding because they're worried about consequences. They're worried that it's going to go badly, etc. And I'll share a bit of personal story about that. The second one is that dichotomy. That's really interesting. And I've personally seen what you're talking about, where leaders think, like if you ask them, do you give feedback? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I I give feedback all the time. And you ask the employees, when was the last time you received fee? I don't remember. And I and I think there's something in that. So I want to unpack that uh a little bit later. And then then the third one is absolutely, we have both a retention and an engagement problem in in the world. They either leave or they just give up. They give up and they they don't bring their best to work uh every single day. Let's get into the first one. Let's get into this avoidance. And I'm going to share my own story a little bit here, Jeff. This has been a big issue in my leadership over time. I've learned to overcome it. And here's the crazy dichotomy is I personally thrive on feedback, and I'd be mortified if someone wasn't telling me something that I needed to know so that I can fix it. And yet, when it comes to giving feedback to someone else, something stops me. It's a it's the people pleaser in me, it's the, oh, I don't want to upset them, et cetera. Now, I've managed to push myself through it, but I want to hear from you how people listening to the audience that are going, you're they're probably sticking up their hand and going, Yeah, that's me. I avoid it. How does someone step through that uh that avoidance and through the breach and into a good feedback conversation?

SPEAKER_01: 10:58

Well, I mean, it goes without saying why we avoid it and and whether you've been in leadership a day or 20 years. I don't know if anybody ever gets to the place that they enjoy it. Nobody wants tension. Everybody, uh, if you're a decent human being, you want to be likable. And what we know is this creates a level of conflict. In the book, I talk about the acronym FEAR, which is fitting because this is what this does boil down to. And the F is fallout. You know, what if I have this tough conversation that I know I need to have and uh it ruins my reputation as a boss because maybe I'm not delivering it the right way. And then the E is emotion. What if I have this conversation and they cry? What would I do if they cried? What what if I have this conversation and they get angry or mad? Or what if I embarrass them? That's the emotion side of it. The A is amateur. What I've learned in all of my years of research around this subject is most leaders have never truly been taught how to navigate a tough conversation, how to quote unquote set the table so that they earn the right to have a tough conversation. And so the amateur piece of this is they just have really never been equipped to do it. And then there's the R, which is retaliation. And this can be a scary one, especially if you're in a corporate type business. Meaning, if I have this tough conversation and it doesn't go as well as I would like it to, and my subordinate tells my boss or pulls in human resources or pulls in legal, I don't know if I want to take that risk and jeopardize my job or my personal brand in this company. I don't need the retaliation. And so for those reasons, F E A R, I may start avoiding this uh because I want to be liked. So that that emotional side of it is a really big factor. We're always anticipating how it could go bad and what could go wrong if we give the feedback. Where what we need to do is build a level of leadership confidence through some framework, some practice, and some structure so that we can lean into a tough conversation knowing that if we have this conversation, I'm not thinking about what can go wrong, but I'm thinking about the cost associated with not helping this person improve and get better. I think that is the shift that needs to happen for leaders.

SPEAKER_00: 13:34

Yeah, really good, Jeff. And it is definitely the fear of that fallout, the the retaliation. There's also the lack of knowledge, not feeling equipped, and feeling like I don't even know how to start the conversation. So Fallout amateur equipped retaliation. I love the acronym. I think it's 100% what it is. Now, for me, I'll I'll tell you how I got through is I had to keep on reframing and reminding myself a few things. One is I've been in leadership roles now for 37 years. That sounds a bit scary. Getting a bit old now. Getting yeah, getting a bit old now. In all of my career, that's happened once. I've had one where it went badly. One. In all of that time, I've had it's happened once. But I I still think about it from time to time. But it's happened once in my entire career where it went badly. The second one is reminding myself that feedback is a gift and that if I was on the receiving end, I'm getting a gift that that I can do something about. And this reminding myself that I thrive on feedback. So why wouldn't I expect that other people do? And then the third is to step into frameworks instead of just going or fumbling with it and going, I don't even know how to do this, actually having some structure to the conversation that I prepared for before the conversation, that I knew what I was gonna say, how I was gonna say it, I was going to use deep listening to listen to the other person as well. It wasn't just a one-sided conversation. Having those frameworks gave me the confidence that it wasn't going to go badly.

SPEAKER_01: 15:12

That's so good, Mick. I love what you said there around you thrive on feedback. If there's a leader listening that avoids tough conversations because of all the things that we're talking about, keep in mind that you have gotten to where you are because of some amazing leaders and you thrive on the feedback, and you're you're open to tough conversations. Now, here's what we know not everybody is, and everybody responds a little bit differently. But when you frame it this way, you may be the leader that has been placed in somebody's life that could literally transform who they become. And avoiding feedback may hold them back. You know, there was a time when I was uh, you know, I started at this company as a truck driver, you know, picking up dirty uniforms and shop rags. And uh it was it was uh an adequate job. But I would, Mick, I would see these people in our office that were dressed in suits and ties, and man, they drove nice cars and wore nice shoes. And I inquired about who are these people? What do they do? And I learned that they were outside salespeople. And I'm like, wow, I would really like to do that. And I get I get my big break into sales to find out I wasn't good at it. Now keep in mind, I still have some sick parents. I'm trying to start my family. You know, my motivation was to climb out of poverty and help my two sick parents and to find out I'm not good at sales. But I had a sales manager, his name was Sean. And this guy knew a little bit of my backstory. He took a chance on me because I was a hard worker, but I wasn't good at sales. And so this is a guy that would keep me after work. We'd go into the conference room and role play and do sales scripts. He would jump in the car and go on sales calls with me and coach me in the car. Sometimes he would even take a sales call and let me observe the master and kind of coach me after he would do a great presentation. You know, this is a guy that took me into a men's suit store and taught me how to dress like a professional. I remember him taking me into the men's room to teach me how to tie a knot on a necktie because I didn't know. I didn't know what collar stays were. This was a guy that was going above and beyond to lead me, beyond what was expected of a leader. And there was a moment in time where I started getting some pretty good results. Things were going well. Things were really starting to take a turn here. And one morning I was off to take a sales call, and I got a call from my father that I needed to rush to the hospital right away because mom was in really bad condition. Now, I had gotten this call many times in my life, but I did what I always did, and I went to the hospital. And this specific day, Mick, it was absolutely different. This would be the day that I would hold my mom for the last time. We were just uh looking at houses to get them out of that one-bedroom apartment high rise into a respectable neighborhood. You know, it was this moment that everything that I was working so hard for just kind of vanished. And now all of a sudden, the fancy clothes and the nice cars weren't enough to motivate me. And I went into a dark place, a depression, a poor attitude. And I remember one day Sean pulled me into his office and he said, Jeff, enough is enough. I'm not gonna let you waste an opportunity. You're a great talent. And I my heart is broken that your mom is gone. But you still have a dad left and you got a young son and an amazing wife that are counting on you to win. But I can't let you keep showing up the way you're showing up. I'm gonna give you the rest of the day off, but I want you to come back tomorrow. And if you can't change how you're acting, you can't be on my team. And I really hope that's not gonna be the position that you put me in. Mick, I came back and I knew Sean was right, but here's what I knew about Sean. I knew that he cared. I knew that he wanted to see me win in deep in my heart, I knew that he was right. I think about what's happened in my life after that tough conversation. I went on to take ten promotions, to become a senior leader in a large company, to have the confidence to step out and start my own business, to sell a best-selling book, and travel all over the world helping other leaders. I often look back and I could literally get emotional thinking about what if Sean would not have had the conversation? So I gotta ask the listener, what if you don't lean into that tough conversation? Somebody is counting on you to lead them well. And I think that's worth noting. And I think that I hope it inspires somebody to lean into that tough conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 19:55

That's really powerful, Jeff. And thank you for sharing again. There's two things that I'm taking away from that. I want to test both of you. My first one, um I'm gonna ask a question that I feel like I already know the answer to, but do you respect that guy more or less after that conversation?

SPEAKER_01: 20:14

Oh my gosh. I respect him so much. We've stayed in touch to this day. I write about him in the book. His names have been talked about all over the world. People have asked, uh, hey Jeff, can you bring him on a YouTube video? Can you bring him to the workshop? He's become a legend, kind of, right? And it's been a beautiful thing to honor his leadership. And I talk about many other leaders in the book as well. And that's just one example. But I can tell you, in the moment that I was at my worst point, here was this leader that literally transformed a mindset and equipped me to win. We need tough conversations. You know, I was misguided. No, nobody ever told me how to be a professional. My parents were fighting for their lives. You know, I wasn't equipped to go into the workforce. There were leaders that saw this ball of clay and saw something in there and pulled it out. And I would say this to the leader that's listening is look, these principles are great for driving great business results. But at the end of the day, there are families that are counting on us to show up as leaders and equip people to reach their fullest potential. And when we do that, great news. It's tremendous for business. It's great for the balance sheet. And I think if we get the people right with easy frameworks, simple maybe, not easy, we can start to execute on these things to become leaders of influence that carry much deeper impact.

SPEAKER_00: 21:47

Yeah, really good, Jeff. So the reason why I asked that that question, I'm calling out to all of the people pleasers listening, right? So what we're hearing about here is a conversation where someone challenged directly but still cared personally. But here's the the thing about the people pleaser. If you're a people pleaser, oh they they're going to hate me. No, when you give the feedback that the person needed to hear, they're going to respect you even more. And they're going to remember you for the rest of your life. Like, listen, listen to Jeff. With the admiration that he speaks of this leader, that's the opportunity. It's not it's not about not being a people pleaser. You're actually going to be respected more.

SPEAKER_01: 22:28

You absolutely will. And and to talk to that people pleaser, if I can, for a second, Mick, because, and by the way, we love you. You're a great person. You're a people pleaser because you love people. You want to see the best in people. And there's the you shouldn't be uh apologizing for that. But the problem with the people pleasing leader is they're liked, but they're never respected. The people pleasing leader, you know who you are because when people quit your team, they're in tears and they say it's not you. I love you. You're great, but people keep quitting, and it's because they don't respect you. The people pleaser is the is the one that, you know, brings in uh cake and ice cream every Friday, you know, they're at every funeral, they write handwritten birthday cards, they just want people to know they like them a lot. The problem with that is you're not respected. And you know who you are because this transcends into your personal life as well. People take advantage of you. And always remember this as a people-pleasing leader. People aren't trying to hurt you, they're trying to help themselves. And if you don't have boundaries, why wouldn't they do that? But then you have the aggressive leader, and the aggressive leader carries a big stick, and if you step out of line, I'm gonna make you, I'm gonna bruise you, I'm I'm gonna hurt you. That's not effective either, because if you're an aggressive leader listening, what you're driving is compliance. When what we need to drive is engagement. When we have engagement, it's not something people have to do, they get to do it. And that is that when we find the balance between the two of those, it's assertiveness. And assertiveness says, I'm gonna clear I'm gonna set very clear and reasonable expectations. I'm gonna give people adequate feedback and training so that they can meet or exceed the expectation. I'm gonna ensure that they understand why the expectation is good for them. And then lastly, I'm gonna hold them accountable when they don't meet the expectation. The accountability piece is missing with the passive leader, with the aggressive leader, the expectations and feedback is often missing. When we can get all three going, we become a leader that's assertive and respected at the same time.

SPEAKER_00: 24:44

Yeah, really, really good, Jeff. So, first of all, on on the the people pleaser element, it's clear, I'm thinking about what you're saying about when they leave, the conversations are usually something, oh, it's not you, I love you. But then it'll be accommodated with, but I don't feel like I'm growing here. I'm not I'm not going anywhere. And where where does growth come from? Growth comes from feedback and from being challenged. And if you're not giving that feedback and you're not challenged the person isn't gonna feel like they're growing. What I want to go on to now, Jeff, listening to your story is that I said before that feedback is a gift. I'm gonna reframe that now and say not giving feedback is theft. And that probably sounds a little bit extreme. I'm gonna say not giving feedback is unfair. And and listening to what you just said about the assertiveness and setting clear expectations, it's unfair to not give someone clear expectations. It's unfair not to tell them in a timely manner that they're not meeting expectations. And I'll I'll just use a shorter time frame rather than the career that you spoke about, Jeff, and your ability to mould someone for them to become the great person they are. I'm gonna just bring it to a short time frame and say, imagine not giving someone feedback throughout the year. And then they get to their annual performance review and they get this terrible review. And they've they've not had any time whatsoever or any feedback that they can actually do anything about it. Before they know it, they're in their annual performance review going, oh, Jeff, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, you're not going to get a bonus this year, you're not gonna get a salary increase. It's completely unfair. How does that stick with you?

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

It's absolutely true. And the data is absolutely out there regarding these annual performance reviews. By and large, the masses are telling us that they don't take them seriously and they think they're given unfairly. You know, this is this creates a lot of blind spots and it will erode the culture of a team. What we know and what I talk a lot about in the book is feedback that is consistent and routine. And uh, you know, I usually get caught into companies when things are broken and people are quitting and results are poor. One of the questions that I always ask to diagnose where the problem is, is I'll say, are is everybody in your company, every employee in your company, do they have a frequent on the calendar routine conversation with their boss? And I will tell you the majority of the time the answer is no. And the reason that I'm given mainly is we don't have time for that. Well, then you need more leaders. Because the last that I checked, we're all in the people business. We need to be leaders that reproduce ourselves and the other people. This is teaching people how to fish. And so the only way to do that, it's spelled T-I-M-E. And in these in these one-on-one discussions, we're talking about expectations, we're talking about feedback, whether that's with an individual development plan or creating SMART goals, and we're tracking progress on those goals, and we continue to stretch them so that they're always continuing to grow. When we do this to every employee in our organization, imagine a leader in a business right now listening, and I said, I can give you a tool that can give you a 5 to 10% lift on every employee in your company. What would that do for the organization? And so make you absolutely spot on. These are things that are fundamentals that need to happen. My role, hopefully, in all of this is to equip them with the tools so that when they have these meetings, they know structure, they know what to say, and they know the framework, so that what comes out the other side is a culture of engagement.

SPEAKER_00: 28:41

Yeah, really good, Jeff. So every time I hear someone say, Oh, we don't have time not to, I instantly think, well, uh, sorry, but I don't have time to do this. I instantly think I you don't have time not to. You've got time to deal with the consequences of not of not giving the feedback, but you don't have the time to give the feedback. It's somewhat crazy. So if you're if you're sitting there going, yeah, I don't have time to, think about you don't have time not to, because you're dealing with the consequences.

SPEAKER_01: 29:07

It's true. Think about how much time you're spending doing interviews and recruiting and you know, performance improvement plans and pulling HR into the disciplinary process and all of the things of not doing this well. Again, it's great for business. There is no better ROI that you're gonna get, you're gonna convince me otherwise than having a great leader that is confident, well equipped to empower other people. You know, I I can't think of a better ROI than that. I mean, sure, I'm sure there's some technologies and you know things to drive productivity, but here's what we know as the leader goes, so goes the organization. You could have a mediocre product and service with superior leadership culture and dominate a marketplace. Adversely, you could have an Average product or service. And if it's at if it's void of great leadership, you're not going to win. Great leadership is the best competitive advantage there is because this is how cultures are built. People understand purpose, they understand mission. And by the way, they're incrementally getting better in their craft, which typically results in more pay. And what does more pay mean? It means they can take care of the things that matter to them most. Now comes gratitude. Now comes loyalty. I haven't reported to Sean for nearly 25 years. I put him in my book. He's going to be there as legacy for the rest of time. I still talk to him at least once a month. I call him for advice. This is a guy that literally transformed my life to go from poverty, not understanding sales, to be giving me skill in a craft to do things for my family that was never done for me. And my grandkids, guess what? Now I have a generational shifting happening. Why? Because one leader stepped up and then another leader stepped up and they kept pouring into me. And by the way, there was tons of tough conversations that came with this. We have to be willing to have the tough conversation. When we earn the right to do that, it's the most beautiful thing. If I can tell a quick story that will definitely speak to the people pleaser, and maybe Mick, you can be a good sport and role play with me here. Mick and I, we're going to be going to a big trade show. You know, we're going to be presenting our goods at this trade show. There's going to be all kinds of people walking by, and me and Mick, we have a big strategy of how we're going to attract people to our table, how we're going to dress, how we're going to look. And I close the meeting by asking Mick this question. And I say, Mick, when we're walking to our table the morning of the first day, if I were to happen to smell uh that your breath wasn't fresh, would you want me to let you know? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Hey, Mick, why would that be important to you to know?

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

Because then people I'd be dealing with people all day and not knowing that uh they were probably wanting to exit stage lift as quickly as they can to get away from my breath.

SPEAKER_01: 32:18

That is, and you know what I know about you, Mick, is you always want to give people your best. And so when we get to that trade show in a couple of weeks, if I were to smell it, you have my commitment. I'm going to let you know because I want you to show up as your best. Well, guess what? Two weeks go by, Mick and I are walking to the table. I smell it. And I say, Mick, I don't know if you remember, but two weeks ago we had a conversation and you asked me to let you know. And your your breath, it's not as minty fresh as it could be, but I got some great news. I have a pocket full of mints, and Mick, I hand you a mint, and you take it. What are the first words out of your mouth after I give you the mint?

SPEAKER_00: 33:01

Thank you so much, Jeff. Thank you so much, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

Now let's let's let's flip the script here. I'm at Starbucks getting coffee, and somebody is behind me in line. I've never met them before, I've never spoken to them before in my life, and I smell that they have very bad breath. And so I turn around and I say, excuse me, sir, your breath stinks. They might punch me, they might tell me, who are you to tell me? I didn't ask you, mind your own business. You know what's crazy about these two scenarios? The data's the same. Breath stinks here, breath stinks here. In one scenario, Mick said, Thank you for letting me know my breath stinks. In the other scenario, I'm being cussed at, told off. Well, why? Because in one scenario, I earned the right. In the other scenario, I didn't. Always remember as leaders, the goal isn't to be right, it's to get the right outcome. When we earn the right, we can literally almost have any tough conversation that we need to have.

SPEAKER_00: 34:09

You have earned the right, and it's invited feedback. It's not coming out of the blue or anything. It's a con it's a pre-conversation that we'd already had. So I think that's a good segue. I think we've given a lot of information to our people pleasers in the audience about overcoming their fear of feedback and stepping into the breach. We also said before that there's a lot of people out there that think they're giving feedback, but their their team members are saying, no, it never happened. The missing ingredient now needs to be a framework, Jeff. So tell us more about the styles of feedback and and how you do set this up for success with the right framework.

SPEAKER_01: 34:50

Yeah, so we have to set the expectations. They have to be clear and reasonable. People have to be trained adequately, they have to know why the expectation is good for them. Once we have that foundation set and we're having these consistent routine connections with our teammates one-on-one. Now, as a leader, we have to understand that not all feedback is created equal. You know, just like a tool belt, you know, you would never start hammering a nail with a screwdriver. You could, but a hammer is the best tool for that. So there's three feedback styles that I talk about in the book. I talk about directive, collaborative, and supportive. There's a flow chart in the book that kind of tells you if this is the scenario, use this feedback. But what I what I want to really drive in our conversation today, Mick, is that is to at least make sure that leaders understand that one size doesn't fit all with feedback. There's a time for directive feedback. Directive feedback is good if there's a safety issue, it's time sensitive, or you're onboarding a new employee. But if you try to give uh direct feedback to a peak performer or a high-tenured person, that's not going to go over well. You may be right in giving the direct feedback, but it's probably not going to land well. That peak performer, high-tenured employee, they probably need some collaborative feedback. Collaborative feedback is whenever we lead them to the answer on their own. When we can do that, now we're doing it together. And then there's supportive feedback. Supportive feedback is that peak performer maybe that wins every month, and then this month they're not winning. Well, we we should not come in with discipline, we shouldn't come in with a performance improvement plan, and certainly not directive feedback. We may need to come with supportive, and we may need to ask a question. Hey, what caused the bat the off month? You know what you might hear? You might hear things like my wife was diagnosed with a a very bad sickness. I had to put my parents in a hospital. We we don't know, but there are times that the goal isn't to be right, it might be to be supportive. Supportive sounds like this. How can I help? I believe in you. Don't let this one bad month define you. Look at your body of work. You've been a peak performer for years. I want you to show up and keep doing your best. I believe in you. Collaborative, it's baked in questions. What were you thinking when you did that? Help me understand. Directive, on the other hand, if we go collaborative with a brand new employee, can you imagine being a new employee showing up, meeting your boss for the first day, and your boss says, So what do you think we should do today? It's like, well, I was kind of hoping you were telling me, right? So we have to understand all feedback isn't the same. And you can't allow your personality to drive how you deliver feedback. If you're an aggressive type, that doesn't mean that you can't be collaborative, because this is a learned behavior. If you're a passive type, it doesn't mean that you can't be directive. It's a learned behavior. Understand that there are multiple types of feedback. I break these down in great detail in the book as far as when to use them and how to use them.

SPEAKER_00: 38:18

Yeah, really good, Jeff. So, first of all, the first thing I heard was that it's consistent and it's frequent. It's not a once-a-year sport. That's the part that would be unfair if you're only doing it once a year. So it's consistent and it's frequent, and then it becomes expected, and there's the expectation setting in there. The second thing I heard there is that it's situational and it's adaptive. So the situational would be, like you said, a safety incident, or it could be we're just in a crisis mode right now, and we need to step in a little bit more, or it could be a safety incident where it needs it, or it could be adaptive, and you're not going to give feedback in the same way to an intern, to a the same way you'd give it to a 30-year veteran and vice versa. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 39:03

So that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00: 39:04

This is making a lot of sense. I want to unpack a little bit more on the collaborative and supportive and about how we ask the right questions. I'll tell you what I like about it first and then hand over to you to give some tips on how to get started. I love that it's kind of two things. It's testing self-awareness. If you're asking questions with the right curiosity, you're actually testing their self-awareness before you get into the things that they need to hear. And the second one is they're taking more ownership. If it comes out of their mouth, they're going to take more ownership and do something with it. So tell me more about how we start those collaborative conversations.

SPEAKER_01: 39:45

Yeah, so I'll give an example of what a collaborative conversation could be. Let's just say that you have a peak performer that drives great results. And uh you're having a team meeting and uh you're rolling out a new comp plan or a new policy or whatever it might be. And during the middle of your presentation, the peak performer says, This is the dumbest thing that I've ever heard. Now, look, if you've been in leadership any length of time, you're going to be challenged. And you almost you're shocked, like, how could anybody say this? How unprofessional. And so we stay fully composed as a leader, but as soon as that meeting's over, we're pulling that person into our office. They're a peak performer, they're high tenure. Now, we're emotional, so right away we want to go into directive. What were you thinking? You were so rude, you're so unprofessional. You always interrupt me. You know, this is judging, this is labeling, this is all of these things that happen in leadership. What we need to do is find composure and be collaborative. And we might say something like this We might ask a question. Look, when I was delivering the content of the meeting today, you interrupted me. And and it it took my uh every train of thought that I had. I gotta ask you, what were you trying to accomplish when you interrupted me and disrupted the whole team? What were you trying to accomplish by doing that? That's a question. Now I get to hear a response. Because look, there's this is a smoking gun. Like I have full right to bring HR in, bring legal in, and start a disciplinary write-up. I could do that. And and I would be right in doing that, but that's not the goal. The goal is to change behavior so that it doesn't continue and we can help them be the best. Now look, there's probably some accountability to this situation, no doubt about it. But if we don't change the behavior, it's only going to repeat itself again. So that would be a great example uh of the collaborative piece, which I think was your question.

SPEAKER_00: 41:51

Yeah, really good. So uh asking the right questions, uh like the composure as well. If you if you start an emotional reaction, you're just gonna add fuel to the fire. So you took the time to compose yourself, and then you asked uh a non-judgmental, open question to get the dialogue started, and then you can unpack it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

And what we know about great leaders, they ask great questions, right?

SPEAKER_00: 42:15

Yeah, really good. And with supportive, I think it's also about asking right questions and also with compassion and care as well.

SPEAKER_01: 42:23

Yeah, you know what the best supportive question is, and we'll end on this one. The best supportive question is this Are you okay? Are you okay? You know, I was giving a performance improvement plan to somebody once. There was a high tenure, relatively above average performer, and I complete the performance improvement plan, and I asked them if they had any questions, and I needed them to sign this document. I talk about this example in the book. And the guy, head down, lifts his head up, he has tears in his eyes, and he said, Jeff, I'm sorry to let you down. And I probably should have told you this a long time ago. My wife has a brain tumor. And man, it has just shattered our family, and I haven't been shown up as my normal self. This wasn't the time for directive feedback, probably not even the time for a performance improvement plan. This was the time for me to ask this question. Are you okay? How can I help? You know, we're we're leading human beings here. We're leading people that are fighting off drug addiction, sicknesses, political and social injustices, a lot of challenges in life. And that makes leadership tough. But I'll tell you what, when we lead well, it also makes it very, very rewarding. And so don't ever lose sight of the opportunity to be supportive. Even the aggressive leader that's watching or listening, this is a big opportunity for you to make a great deposit.

unknown: 43:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:55

Well said, Jeff. Yeah, very well said. And thank you for sharing that story as well. It's a great way to round us out. I'll just summarize a few things that we've been through for everyone listening. So if you've got that fear of giving feedback, listen back to the show and listen to what Jeff has been saying. If you are a people pleaser and you're avoiding the conversation, they it's not that people are not going to like you. They're going to respect you more by giving that feedback. That giving feedback is a gift, or even further, if you don't give the feedback, you're robbing that person of the opportunity to become the best that they can be, to address the situation in a timely manner. So withholding it is completely unfair. So they'll respect you more. They'll be able to work with that feedback if if you give it to them in the right way and in a timely manner. That it strengthens your relationship when you do this. It strengthens it, it doesn't weaken it. So you need to overcome these fears and you need to step into the breach. Then you need to think about if you think you don't have time to, think about that you don't have time not to, because you're dealing with the consequences of not giving the feedback. Giving the feedback gives the opportunity for everyone to grow. The person, the business, yourself, you'll learn as well from giving the feedback. And then to think about both situationally and adaptively, what style of feedback is going to best suit this situation and this person in this situation. Is it directive? Is it collaborative? Is it supportive? And in those collaborative and supportive models, it's all about asking the right questions and then holding space for the person and listening to the answer. Really great, Jeff. I've I've loved this conversation. I'm now going to take us to our rapid round. These are the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. So, what's the one thing that you know now, Jeff Hancher, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

SPEAKER_01: 45:54

Well, I wish that I knew that things were going to get better. You know, a lot of my life I've battled imposter syndrome, uh, poverty mentality, you know, scared to take risks. I wish I would have known that things were going to get better and that I was going to become equipped to have a level of impact. Because that young Jeff Hanser was scared to death and not sure how things were going to turn out. So uh that that would be it for me.

SPEAKER_00: 46:22

Yeah, really good. And you have been in dark days and look at you now. So I'm gonna say to people in the audience that might be experiencing that that this too shall pass. All right. So this too shall pass. All right, very good. Uh, what's your favorite book?

SPEAKER_01: 46:37

The Bible. The Bible has transformed me. But if uh if I were thinking leadership books, I would say that it would be The Five Levels of Leadership by John Maxwell. A great framework in the uh in the leadership journey. I would go the five levels of leadership.

SPEAKER_00: 46:53

Yeah, really good, Jeff. Okay, very good. What's your favorite quote?

SPEAKER_01: 46:57

My favorite quote is if you lack confidence in self, you're twice defeated in the race of life, but with confidence you have won even before you begin. I think confidence is the eighth wonder of the world. And I believe how we gain confidence is what we consume and who we surround ourselves with. When we have supreme confidence, we feel like what we have is a duty and obligation to serve others. So that's my favorite quote because confidence, it changes everything.

SPEAKER_00: 47:27

That's very powerful, Jeff. I feel like we could have another podcast interview just on that quote and just unpack it for Yeah, really good. And and finally, Jeff, people are going to be quite like they've they've taken actual insights from this, but there's going to be people that want to know more and want to lean into the styles of feedback, the framework, et cetera. How do they find you? How do they find your work, your workshops? How do they find your book?

SPEAKER_01: 47:51

Yeah, well, thank you for asking, and thank you for everybody listening. I feel like every time I do an interview, I've left so much unsaid. I can be found at jeffhanter.com. There's free resources there. You know, we talked about questions. I have 52 weeks worth of questions on the website to equip leaders. The book, you can go wherever books are sold. I'd recommend that you go to firmfeedbackbook.com. Uh, if you go there, we have free resources. We didn't write this book so that people could say they read it. We wrote with this book so that people could take the content and execute. And so there's resources on firmfeedbackbook.com that you can have absolutely for free by going to that website. As far as my workshops, uh, they're all over my website. Uh, we have open uh to the public workshops, and certainly we travel all over the place doing workshops inside of companies. The book actually came by way of a workshop. Uh the workshop gained a lot of attention, so we wrote a book and added some stories to it. So, yes, we do plenty of uh in-house training as well, and certainly have a podcast uh that comes out every week. It's called the Champion Forum Podcast, and certainly would love to be a part of everybody's leadership journey.

SPEAKER_00: 49:10

Yeah, well done, Jeff. Uh, and inspired by what you just said, I'm gonna give one more call to action to the audience. I want everyone that's just listening to the show, instead of just being wiser from listening to Jeff, I want you to think about one person in your life that you might have been withholding feedback from because you didn't want to hurt them, you were scared of the conversation. I want you to think about what they need to know, prepare for the conversation, what style of feedback is it going to be? And I want you to step into that breach today. Do it today. Take that step and give someone feedback that they deserve to know, and you've been withholding it because you're too worried about the conversation. That's your call to action today. All right. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you so much for spending your time with us today. The gift of your time, the gift of your wisdom, and for talking us through and giving us our confidence that we can step into the breach and give powerful feedback to our people. It's greatly appreciated.

SPEAKER_01: 50:09

Thank you, Mick. Appreciate your time, and it's been an honor to be with you and uh your amazing listeners. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00: 50:15

What a powerful conversation with Jeff Hansher. Thank you, Jeff, for making feedback both humane and non-negotiable. Your action list for the next seven days. Number one, set the bar. Write and share one concrete expectation per role. Clear and reasonable. Number two, pick the style on purpose. Supportive for a proven performer in a dip. Collaborative for when you need a shared diagnosis and ownership. And directive when safety, ethics, or standards are at risk. Number three, schedule the rhythm. Put recurring one-on-ones on the calendar and treat them as the work, not an interruption to it. Giving feedback is your job. And you need to lean in and take it seriously. If this episode served you well, please follow or subscribe and share it with a leader who avoids tough talks and leave us a quick review. It helps the show reach more people. In the next episode, it will be my October wrap-up solo cast. I'll distill the most actionable ideas from all of our guests during the month of October and translate them into a single practical playbook you can use with your team. Thank you for listening to the Literature Project at mixpears.com. A huge call out to Ferris the Deck for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joanne goes on, Gerald Calavo and my amazing wife, Stace Bears. I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to the Liveshire Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each every week. And you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other, and join us on this journey as we learn together and leave together.