288. Approachable Leadership: Shrinking Power Distance with Phillip B. Wilson

Have you ever noticed your team hesitating before sharing bad news? That pause often reveals the power distance leaders unintentionally create. In this conversation with Phillip B. Wilson, author of The Approachability Playbook and The Leadershift Playbook, we explore how unapproachable leadership sabotages effectiveness and silences truth.

Phil explains how our brains default to the “villain assumption”—attributing negative intent to others while excusing our own actions with context. When paired with confirmation bias, this creates cultures where honesty is stifled. His antidote is the “hero assumption”: believing people fundamentally want to do great work and succeed. He shares his own humbling leadership lessons, including the moment a key team member refused to work for him despite his reputation.

We also unpack Phil’s Connection Model of approachability: creating the right space (being available), generating the right feeling (listening to understand), and taking the right action (following through). These simple but powerful practices shrink power gaps, build trust, and transform leadership impact. The most successful leaders aren’t those with all the answers—they’re the ones who create environments where people feel safe to bring forward problems, questions, and ideas.

🌐 Connect with Phillip:
• Website: https://yourleadershift.com/, https://lrionline.com/ and https://approachableleadership.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pbwilson/

📚 You can purchase Phillip's books on Amazon:
• The Leader-Shift Playbook: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1639081178/
• The Approachability Playbook: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1733147063
• Left of Boom: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0963855425/

Chapters

• 0:00 The Problem with Power Distance
• 10:07 Hero Assumption vs. Villain Assumption
• 16:47 The Connection Model of Approachability
• 26:58 Confronting Mount Stupid as a Leader
• 39:03 Practical Steps for Leadership Growth
• 47:11 Key Takeaways and 24-Hour Challenge

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:00

Mick, when your team hesitates to bring you bad news, what signal are you sending, and how big is the power distance gap you've created? Do you enter a tough conversation with a villain assumption or a hero assumption about the other person's intent? And if your people had a deck of approachable leader behaviors. Which three would they quietly wish you'd work on today, I'm joined by Phil Wilson, the author of the approachability playbook and the lead shift playbook. We'll unpack the connection model of approachability, the right space, the right feeling and the right action, and we'll explore the mindset flip to the hero assumption and how to avoid getting stuck on Mount stupid. By the end, you'll have actionable insights on what you can do to make your relationships safer, your feedback loops richer and your culture stronger. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm gladly honored today to be joined by Phil Wilson. Phil is a leadership expert and keynote speaker and the author of multiple books about leadership, including the approachability playbook and his latest offering, the leadership playbook. And there's two key teams that terms that we're going to pack unpack today, what is approachability and how to be approachable, and what does that mean lead a shift. I'm really curious to know what all of this means that let's get straight into it. Phil, I'd love it if you'd say hello to the audience and then let us know a little bit about your background and what inspired you to do this work that you do today and the books that you write?

Philip Wilson: 1:42

Well. Mick, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, and I was looking at you have hundreds of episodes, and I'm I'm really excited and honored to have an opportunity to share with your audience. You know what? What inspires me and what inspires our team is to help our clients thrive and create extraordinary workplaces. That's what gets me out of bed in the morning. And I guess that started with my work early in my career as a labor lawyer. And I've been involved with a lot of leadership train wrecks, I guess you could say, but I've been involved in a lot of crisis situations that almost always boil down to a failure in leadership, and very often that failure, it certainly happens at top management, but a lot of times it really just happens because you have first level supervisors, first level leaders that don't really have never been invested in, never really been trained to be leaders. A lot of times, people will promote high performing individual contributor and say, you know today your shirt color changes and you're a supervisor. And the struggle that those folks have, and then watching many, many, many examples of them turn around and really become great leaders. That's what inspires me. It's what inspires me to write the books that I write, and a lot of the stories that are in those books come from those experiences. But that's what inspires me.

Mick Spiers: 3:15

Yeah, really good, Phil, and the impact that you're having on the world, I can see how rewarding that would be, very intrinsically, when you when you see turnarounds. The first thing I want to unpack where what you've shared there is about industrial relation meltdowns, if you like, when a workplace has become quite toxic and it's almost sometimes irreparable. What I'm going to post here, Phil, is that no leader wakes up in the morning, in my opinion, and rubs their hands together. What can I do to be a real jerk today? And guess what? No team member wakes up in the morning going, What can I do today? Rub their hands together. What can I do today to make my boss's job a nightmare today? No one comes to work on the first day with those intentions. Where do we go wrong?

Philip Wilson: 4:05

That is exactly how I describe what I call the hero assumption. And you're right. No one wakes up thinking they're the villain of the story, but we will often sort of trip our ways into believing, you know, the opposite, believing that that our team member shows up at work thinking they are going to be the villain of the story, or they're like they're, you know, we think their only role in life is to make our lives miserable. And many employees show up at work feeling the same way about their supervisor, and that and that does create an absolutely toxic culture, and that's why it is so important, especially for leaders. And then again, I'll emphasize it's that first level leader you know you can have, you can have all the posters on the wall, and you can have all the right things on the website. Your culture is operationally defined by the interaction that frontline workers have with. Their immediate supervisor. And if those relationships are strong, you're gonna have a good culture, even maybe in spite of what's happening layers above that first level team. And if that those relationships are bad, you can have the most high flying company in the best market doing great work. But like, the culture is not going to be good, and ultimately, that culture will fail if those relationships aren't good. So that is where the rubber meets the road. And to me, the core. There's two keys. Well, I'm sure we'll talk about approachability in a second. But the second key is that hero assumption, what do you believe about the people that you lead, and if you believe they want to be great, if you don't believe that they're the villain, your words will be different. Your behavior toward them will be different. And even on days when they might be screwing up, you're going to respond differently in those situations, and that different response transforms what those conversations are like.

Mick Spiers: 5:59

I want to unpack a little bit further what this looks like. Phil, I think it's really good. So I'm going to ask the audience right now, think about this. Do you ever fall into the trap? But I'm going to stick up my own hand and say, I know that I've done this. We all do. Do you ever fall into the trap where your first thought is, Arthur, they did that on purpose. They're such a jerk. If you're falling into that, whether it's you're the team leader and you're thinking that of your people, or you're the team member and you're thinking that of your boss, if you're falling into the trap, they did that on purpose. They're out to get me. They're trying to bring the team down. They're a jerk. What if you flip that script and went, Well, hang on a second. No, they're just trying to do their very best work and and they are the hero of the story, not the villain of the story. How do we take the first step? Phil, if we do fall into the trap of it, might be someone listening to this on the way to work now, going, oh shit, yeah, I do that. How do they take the first step to check in with themselves?

Philip Wilson: 6:54

Well, first of all, your brain is wired to make the villain assumption that it's called actor observer bias. If you do happen to be driving while listening to this podcast, if someone were to pull right in front of you, you know your immediate reaction that is going to be, what a jerk, right? But if you were to try to squeeze in and someone's not letting you in, and you kind of squeeze in to the lane in front of you, your reaction is going to be what? You're a good driver, they're the jerk, right? That's actor, observer bias, and we do exactly the same thing at work. If somebody, if we, screw up something, we have all of the context around us, right? We were under a deadline, we didn't have enough information, we didn't have the right tools, all the different things that happened, and we're able to explain, like, why this bad thing occurred, but when it's one of our teammates, you know, we just are outside looking in, observing, and when someone else screws up, our brain is just hardwired to go, there is something wrong with that person, like they're the failure, and we judge them all right. So that that is hardwiring. Here's the other terrible hard wiring that we have, which is called confirmation bias. Once I have concluded that you're the villain, I literally will only see evidence that you're a villain, and even if I am confronted with evidence that says you're the hero, I will ignore that because it doesn't confirm the bias that I already have, which is that you're the villain. So these are two hard wired into your brain things that you have to overcome as a leader. And so here's like a quick tactic that you can use to do that, and it's called the pattern interrupt. So the first thing that you have to do is spend a little bit of time thinking about what are common examples where someone on your team does something where you slip into your wiring of actor, observer bias and confirmation bias, and you'll have to reflect a little bit on what are those sort of common times where you're you get a little bit triggered, and you're like, Oh, there they go. In go again. They're screwing up. And then figure out a way to interrupt the pattern. And so let's just use a really simple example, but you see somebody who is doing this operation that is technically not the easiest thing to do, and it gets messed up pretty commonly. And as soon as you see someone mess it up, because it's something you used to do, and you were really good at it, you look at them and you want to just go like, Oh, there they go again. They've messed it up, right? The pattern interrupt is basically as soon as you feel yourself going into that space, how can you flip that? How can you reverse it? And so one way you could reverse that is like, oh my gosh, great. An opportunity to learn here, an opportunity to explain how this, you know, works to make sure that everybody else can see it. This person is going to be world class at this operation, and Now's the chance to get them there. That's not simple to do, but if you start looking for opportunities to flip that script, you now are trying to get your brain looking for confirmation by. Sort of the opposite direction towards the hero assumption, and that will change the interaction.

Mick Spiers: 10:06

Really good. Phil, so I'm, I'm loving this pattern interrupt the things that I'm picking up as I'm listening to the whole story here is that it starts with awareness, awareness that your brain is naturally going to go to the villain assumption. That's a that's a key step awareness of confirmation bias to go, am I only seeing the things that confirm what I already believe, or am I truly being objective of the evidence in front of me? And then, if I start taking a hero assumption, I'm starting to maybe come up with more innocent explanations of their behavior, instead of the jumping to the villain assumption, I'm starting to go, Well, are there, is there one, two, or even three more innocent explanations of why they did that in the way that they did it? And now curiosity is going to kick in, and we're going to have a conversation about instead of leaving it as a unspoken assumption. Oh, what a jerk. And then grumble off on your day, stop and go. Hey, tell me more about what are you trying to achieve here? And then having a dialog, how does that sound?

Philip Wilson: 11:10

Yeah, and I love the way that you're talking about this is coming from a place of curiosity, right? Like, don't go in thinking you have all the answers you don't. And people probably used to do that operation differently before you learned how to do it, however you know how to do it, and somebody may be coming up with an even better way to do it. So if you go into a situation like that, where, instead of going in and going, let me show you the right way to do it, or how I do it, if you come at it from a place of curiosity, you were going to start asking questions, right again, make the hero assumption. This person wants to do great work. They want to be great. They are great. Okay, so now when you see them do what looks to you like a mistake, and you have different experience and and maybe it is a mistake, but when you see that, your first thing should be curiosity about that. What were you seeing when you made that move? What else was going on that made you approach it like that? Have you tried that before? Is are you? Are you trying something new? If you approach it like that, you're not judging them now. You're trying to learn for yourself. You might even collaboratively come up with a whole different way of doing something that is the entire lean movement and Toyota production and Kaizen and all of that is basically founded on this idea that the person closest to the work actually knows more than anybody, and so being curious about what they're Doing, listening to their feedback about what they're doing that is a place you're coming to it from the hero assumption. Now they may have made a mistake and may learn from that mistake, but it's going to be a lot different than you coming in and going get out of the way. Let me show you how to do it. Do it like that next time you get a chance to do it, and then they're just going to be mad at you for being a jerk and micromanaging them, and no one gets a chance to learn,

Mick Spiers: 13:04

Yeah, and then they're going to put you into the villain column straight away as well. So it's going to be bilateral, all right, so we've got our first powerful takeaway team. Have a think about this. Have a think that you're hardwired for the villain assumption. Notice a name when it happens, and see how you can reframe to a hero assumption. Okay, well, they had good intentions. What were they trying to achieve? And then have a have a dialog about it. Use the curiosity. And I think that you can then co create an answer to their problem, whilst also giving them some guidance based on your experience. Ah, okay, I see now. I see what you're trying to do. Have you thought about this way? But it's a better dialog now you're co creating together from different perspectives.

Philip Wilson: 13:47

Yeah, and just one other sort of, like, very practical thing would be, you know, assume this is your best friend doing it, or assume, like, you probably already have some favorites that work for you and some people that maybe are not your favorites, right? If this was one of your favorite team members, how would you respond? Versus maybe somebody that's not your favorite, okay? Like that behavior of pretend like they are your best worker, or pretend like they are your best friend, you're going to enter that interaction in the correct way. You're going to enter that interaction with the hero assumption being made, and again, your words and your behavior will be different, and they will feel that, and they will respond differently towards you.

Mick Spiers: 14:31

Really powerful. Phil, you've given us something that we can all start doing straight away. Thank you so much. Now during that conversation, you also mentioned that approachability is going to be an other ingredient in this, and you are the author of the book the approachability playbook. First of all, what does approachability look like, and how does it help us in this situation?

Philip Wilson: 14:53

Yeah, one fundamental concept before I get into the model. The fundamental concept is this idea of power, distance. So in any power dynamic power relationship, there's someone in the higher power position and someone in the lower power position. And in any time you have that, people have varying relationships to people in power and you can imagine, you know, like a doctor and a patient, how, like, how do you interact with your doctor? And some, some people know their doctor really well and have gone to him for a long time, and they'll tell their doctor anything. And then some people are nervous, and their blood pressure goes up before they go in. And they're worried about, you know, they're worried about, what do they tell the doctor? A lot of people won't be, won't share stuff that they probably should share with their doctor because that of that relationship. You know, there's a there's a lot of other examples, you're driving down the road and there's flashing lights behind you, your first thought is probably not, you're getting pulled over to get like Citizen of the Month, right? So that, that feeling that you get That's power distance. So employees have that same feeling toward their supervisor. Now sometimes that relationship is low power distance. It's like the doctor that you've gone to for your whole life, and you feel comfortable and safe sharing anything with them. But oftentimes that relationship is there's a lot wider power distance. And the problem with wide power distance is we behave differently. We don't share things that we maybe should or could. We are afraid to make suggestions. We'd rather understand kind of I'd rather just agree with you than tell you what I actually think. I will avoid coming to you until things are just so out of hand that I don't have any other alternative. There's all kinds of negative things that happen when power distance is wide. And so a big thing that we teach is you as a leader, need to understand there is this thing called power distance, and your goal should be to shrink power distance as much as you can. So that's foundational. And then how do you do that? You do that by being approachable. And the way that you build approachability with your team. There's basically three building blocks. So the first one is openness, or what we call the right space. So just practically, what does that mean? That means, are you available? Like, if your team needs you, can they get to you? If your team comes to you, do you greet them? Are you welcoming? Or are you like, Oh boy, here we go again, and they're an interruption, right? So you need to have kind of a welcome mat out as a leader. That's openness, or right space. The second component is understanding, or what we call right feeling. So that's, do you listen when you someone is talking to you? Are you listening to figure out what you're going to say next? Or are you listening to really understand what it is that they're asking you about? This is Covey's, you know, seek to understand before you seek to be understood. Okay, so that's the center component. We call that right feeling. Do people leave feeling better that they came to you than than when they arrived? The third component is support, or what's called right action. And support is just simply, do you walk your talk? You know, you can be open and available. You can listen really well, and then they leave and you guys, you've agreed on a couple things you're going to do, but if you don't do them, you might as well just be a jerk at the beginning and save everybody a lot of time, right? So you need to be reliable. You need to be trustworthy. You need to be somebody who does what they say that they're going to do. So those are the three components of being approachable, and we call that the connection model. But if you are doing those three things consistently, you will have strong, high connection, low power, distance relationships with your team, and they will feel safe and comfortable sharing suggestions or concerns, anything that's on their mind. They'll feel safe and comfortable not just sharing with you, but being real with you.

Mick Spiers: 18:44

Great, Phil, we're getting some really powerful takeaways here that people can do. I'm going to share with what I was thinking as you were talking and I was thinking about the power distance. And it's very easy for us to underestimate this and think that we are the approachable one in the office. And here's the exercise I'm going to invite the audience to do. Have you ever had a boss or a situation where you were nervous, going to tell your boss some bad news, or you have a question but you don't know how to even start the conversation? That's power distance. Now that's you in the team member seat, and you're going to your boss. Now, imagine now you're 180 now look at your team. Are they feeling that when they approach you? Are they getting nervous and scripting in their head exactly what they're going to say to you before they even say it? Or are they going, oh, like you said before, shit, he comes the boss. We better look busy or something. I can't explain it that well, but, but put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Yeah, put yourself in their shoes for a moment, because you've been, you've had that same thing, and then what you can do is, yeah, go for yeah.

Philip Wilson: 19:55

Like, do like, two quick things that relate to that that those are great examples. So. So the first one is, this is not just a work thing, right? You have power distance with your spouse. You have power distance with your kids. So all of your relationships, there is a component of this happening. And again, the goal should always be to shrink that power distance. The other part about this, Mick, that makes it a lot more challenging. It is a subconscious thing, right? Like you don't consciously go, my boss is, you know, gonna eat me like a saber tooth tiger, but like the the wiring in the primitive part of your brain, you you go into fight, flight or freeze when you are confronted with this power relationship. And so because you're not thinking it consciously, the leader is the one who has to be thinking about it. And so what is the leader doing to think about that you are observing the person who is approaching you, or maybe even not approaching you, right? Like, if you, if you like, are working your way through the warehouse and and this one person always scatters to go wherever, away from wherever you are. That's an observable behavior, right? They don't want to physically be around you. But nervous behavior, the words that you speak, what's called mitigated speech, and even behavior. Mick, so I say, I'm going to do one thing, but I Yeah, but I don't. I would rather tell you, yeah, sure, boss, I'll get that done and then just not do it because I don't know how. And just hope you never follow up with me, right? That would be a behavioral example of power distance. I don't feel safe telling you I don't know how to do this. So those that though, it's incumbent on the leader to be on the lookout for these signs of power distance. It's not the follower. A lot of times, doesn't even really understand it, other than they just get nervous around their boss.

Mick Spiers: 21:48

Yeah, really good. Phil, so the action I want people to think about is ask yourself that question, do you have a power distance between you and your boss? Then ask yourself the question, is there a power distance between you and your team, and if your answer no, I think you're probably kidding yourself. And then think about, what can I do to shrink that power distance so I am open and approachable, and through these skills that Phil is talking about, listening to understand. Don't just listen to wait for your turn to respond or listen for the thing. Confirmation bias. Again, by the way, Phil listening to the things that confirm what you already believe. You walk away from that conversation no wiser than when you start and the person doesn't feel heard. So making them feel seen, making them feel heard, because you're listening to understand, understand cognitively and understand emotionally, not not just the content. How do they feel right now? That's what true listening looks like, and then making sure that your actions match your words, to build the trust. Because if they trust you, that the that you are going to act on what they shared with you, they'll share again the next time. If they share things with you and you do nothing, they'll they'll eventually just shut up. Am I right?

Philip Wilson: 23:01

Yeah, right. Here's another pro tip, the easy button here, like ask your team, do they feel safe and comfortable approaching you? And if that conversation makes your stomach tighten up a little bit, you've already answered the question, right? So we teach, one of the exercises we teach in our workshop, is we have a little stack of cards, and on that stack of cards there is a listing of approachable leader behaviors, and on the flip side of each card is the opposite, like the unapproachable version of that behavior. And a really simple exercise that you can do is to give your teammates this stack of cards and go, I want you to flip through these cards, and I want you to pick three things on here that you think that I do well, that you'd like me to keep doing, and then pick three things that you wish that I would work on, things that you think I could do better. Now that is a powerful way, first of all, to show Look, I am humble enough to that I want to receive feedback from you, and your feedback is important to me, and I hope that you feel comfortable being honest with me. And the fact that you give them these cards actually is a little bit of a crutch, right? Instead of just telling somebody, Hey, what could I do better? And they have to kind of make up something in their head or decide how they're going to say what it is that they want to say, give them the words in front of them, right? And you already know what's on the cards. So, so it's not going to be a big, you know, surprise to you, either, and then have that conversation. And again, if that feels uncomfortable, then you're not approachable.

Mick Spiers: 24:36

I love this on multiple levels, Phil, and what I like is you're gonna if you use this kind of prompt approach, you're gonna get more specific, rather than just very generic blah blah feedback. You're gonna get specific feedback, and you're also gonna get more prompted feedback. If you ask someone just random question, what would you like me to do differently? You're not giving them much of a fight. Frame to work in, yeah, this is, I think that is going to open up the conversation quite a bit. And the key thing here is what you were saying about the gut feel, just asking question, if you're already nervous about the answer, yeah, you might have a problem. And on. On top of that, if no one is giving you feedback, that doesn't mean that there's no feedback to give. Or if all they're telling you is, yeah, yeah, Boss, you're doing a great job. Don't believe that you lean in a bit more. No one is perfect. No one is perfect.

Philip Wilson: 25:31

Yeah. Another telltale sign that you are not approachable as a leader is either you don't get any feedback, you only get positive feedback. And then the third one is you only get, like, really bad news. And that third one is really interesting, because if you're only get presented things when, like, it's a giant mountain of a problem, that means no one feels comfortable coming to you about the molehill. You know that probably could have solved things, but no one wants to share that with you because they're afraid you're going to kill the messenger probably. And so the only time you learn things, and if you if you have the feeling that you're out of the loop a lot of times with your team, that's another great signal that you are they don't feel comfortable sharing with you.

Mick Spiers: 26:18

Yeah, really good. Phil, now before all the leaders listening to the show go into depression all the things that Phil's talking we want you to do these check ins. We want you to ask yourself these questions, but we also want you to take action. It's recoverable, but it's recoverable through your intentional actions, by going and having those dialogs with your team. All right, Phil, I want to, I want to go to the leadership playbook now. And I know some of what we've already been talking about, like the hero assumption is in there. What I want to hear from you is you've you very openly said that you found yourself on Mount stupid at one point. What did that look like?

Philip Wilson: 26:58

Well, the reference to mount stupid refers if you're familiar with the Dunning Kruger effect curve. So the way the Dunning Kruger Kruger curve works is at the very, you know, on the very end of of it, the very beginning. So you are, I don't know anything, and I know I don't know anything. That's a safe place to be, all right. But what happens on that curve is it goes up like this, and then it goes back down, and then works it way back up. So the next stop on the Dunning Kruger effect curve is what's called Mount stupid. Mount stupid is where you think you know something about a subject, but you actually don't know anything about that subject. And that's a super dangerous place to be, and that's where I found myself with my own team, where I was flying around the country. I tell the story in the book, but I was flying around the country teaching people about all the same stuff. You and I have just been talking about, about approachability and power, distance and all of that. When I was the cobbler whose children had no shoes, I was doing a terrible job of leading in my own company with my own team, and I had a moment where I had a conversation with a really key person in our company that I'd worked with for years, that basically, she's like, I don't want to work for you. She had reported to my father, who started our company 47 years ago, and I had a position for her that was going to really partner with me, but would report to me, and she shared that I told your dad he's not allowed to retire until I retire, because I'm never going to work for Phil. And I had no idea that she felt that way, and we'd worked together for a long time. I mean, I knew that I drove her crazy, and she kind of drove me crazy, but I never thought that we would have that conversation, and that conversation was really important. So people like that in your life are an absolute blessing. That she felt comfortable to tell me that, and we then had a conversation, and we sort of worked through what it was that that I was doing that made her crazy, and the things that she did that annoyed me, and through those conversations, we were able to come to an agreement about okay we would work together, and how we were going to work together, and that became the beginning of a journey for my company that we've been on for about the last five years, and it's transformed Our culture. We're, you know, we're, we're drinking our own champagne, as they say, but we're doing a lot of the things that I was teaching everybody else to do that I really wasn't doing in my own company, because I was, you know, I was in that space where I thought I was approachable, but wasn't really asking anybody for feedback about, like, how am I doing?

Mick Spiers: 29:41

Yeah, really good, Phil, there's actually two takeaways, or two levels of takeaways I'm taking away there. The first one is a lot of the people that listen to the show are leaders of leaders, right? So they're not just leaders of teams, but they're leaders of leaders. And they might be in a situation where they're coaching other leaders on their people, leaders. Leadership and their their skills and their craft, etc. I'm going to say, Listen to Phil, have a look in the mirror, right? So next time you're giving some coaching to one of your team leaders where you're trying to coach them on a on a leadership topic, go look in the mirror and make sure that your actions are also matching what you're telling other people, so that there's a congruence there. And then the second one, when I hear you talk about Mount stupid and Dunning Kruger, is I'm going to ask people to check in with yourself and think that if you think that you know everything, that's when you're actually the most dangerous, and that's when you're going to stop asking curious questions. The things that Phil was saying before about the people closest to the action usually understand the problems better than anyone else, and if you think you know it all because you're the boss, you're in deep trouble, and you need to get down off mount stupid and start asking what you think are stupid questions, and get out there and and listen with an open mind and an open heart and an open will to imagine that you don't know everything. How do both of those sit with you, Phil?

Philip Wilson: 31:08

Well, I just assume I'm always on the top of Mount stupid now, like I feel like that's the, that's the that's the safe place to be, but I but really, you know, one the idea of Dunning Kruger is like, once you get to the bottom of that, you know, the pit of despair, I think, is what it's called on the chart. Then you start working your way up from a place of knowledge, where we do, Mick, exactly what you just said, which is, I know I don't have all the answers. I know leadership is complicated. I know that I have to work on myself, even if I am coaching others that place of humility. That's that's where you are going to be the best possible leader that you can be. And then to your first point, yes, you need to look yourself in the mirror, but you can. There's another shortcut, which I already just talked about, but the consumer of your leadership, like the if the product or service you're providing is leadership. The consumer of that product is sitting in front of you. Do a customer service survey, the same thing that you would if it was any other product or service that you were providing to any other customer, and ask them, How am I doing based on the leadership that I've provided you in the last 90 days? Would you recommend me as a leader? Right? What? And then go back to that, what could I do more of? What should I stop doing those questions, being comfortable asking those questions, and being willing to receive and act on that feedback that alone, whatever level of leadership you are and whoever you're coaching, that just that interaction will make a huge amount of difference. Now you have to actually listen, and you have to actually act on the feedback that you're getting. But that conversation that's a game changer.

Mick Spiers: 32:50

I think it plays well with one of the things that you also say in the book, which is that you're the worst judge, sorry, of your own leadership, and if you're not out there asking those questions, what's it like to experience me as a leader? Would you recommend me to one of your friends? And if you would, why would you, if you wouldn't, why wouldn't you? And you know, go in with an open an open mind about what you're going to hear now, tell me, Well, what if you get really kind of, we're going to say, very grounding information back, similar to the story that you've had, Phil, and what do you need to do at that point?

Philip Wilson: 33:25

Yeah, just like I did, that started with a very frank discussion with the lady I'm talking about. Her name's Debbie, and she still works here. She's our integrator, and Debbie. So Debbie said how she felt about working for me. I asked her so we were embarking on this journey of converting our company over to this operating system called Eos, based on a book called Traction by Gina Wickman. And that system has this, this idea of the integrator and the visionary. And in our organization, I was the visionary part of what was creating. A lot of the challenges that we had organizationally was that I was trying to do this integrator kind of operations role, but I'm terrible at it. I'm like, it's, it's, I don't like it, and I'm not very good at it, so I shouldn't be doing it, but I was trying to, and the visionary role is where I'm most comfortable. Well, Geno also has a book called, in addition to traction, called rocket fuel. And one of the things that Debbie and I did was we read that book together, and that book sort of breaks down this relationship between integrator and visionary, and it was explaining a lot of the things that we were experiencing with each other. And so then we had very direct conversations. And we even, we even reached a formal agreement as to these were things that Debbie needed to feel that I was committing to in order for her to take the step to trust me to go into this role. And I had to agree, like one of the things I had to agree to me. Mick, which tells you a little bit about sort of how high on Mount stupid I was. I had to agree that she could fire me from the leadership team of my own company if I wasn't following through on the things that I was committing and the reason that she asked for that was because I had this history of chasing shiny objects. I still chase shiny objects, but I now have a team around me that's constantly going like, hey, get back in your box and, you know, stop chasing the shiny object, but, but no one felt comfortable saying that to me in the old days. And a big part of that was we didn't really have this structure and didn't have the person in this integrator role to sort of be, you know, balance what I do well in this visionary role. So that was how it started, and just to answer the question. So that was my experience. But how does this look for other leaders? It's a conversation, and maybe a series of conversations where you are really trying to explore, how can I best serve you as your leader? What are the things that you need from me to be successful. How can I help you be successful? And then you as the leader, also have to get comfortable. And if the more vulnerable you're willing to be, the more vulnerable your teammates going to be willing to be. But where you can give them feedback, of this is what I need from you. That conversation is really where it starts.

Mick Spiers: 36:18

Yeah, really good, Phil, and it's going to be difficult. I'm going to say to say to everyone, it's going to be difficult to start that conversation, but once you get going, it's going to be one of the most valuable conversations that you have. And just remember that there's no such thing as fear that, sorry, fearless. There's no such thing as fearless that person is overcoming their fears to have the courage to tell you what others may not be willing to tell you because of the power distance that we're talking about before?

Philip Wilson: 36:45

I also tell people, Mick, if you don't feel that sort of like pit in your stomach, sometimes when you're when you're getting ready to go into a conversation, you are not doing it right like that. That feeling is what leadership feels like, like there are going to be tough conversations that you'd probably rather not have if you're leading properly, and if you're never feeling like that, you are not doing it right.

Mick Spiers: 37:08

Yeah, good. And then you're going to start having the conversations that you really need to have. And by the way, the story you tell repeats itself in companies all over the world. A visionary that thinks that 1000 ideas a minute and changes the priorities every week, frustrates the hell out of operational people that haven't finished the last priority that you gave them before. You've run into the room and said, Stop everything. We're doing this now. They get very frustrated with it.

Philip Wilson: 37:34

Before you decided the last shiny object was a bad idea and didn't tell anyone.

Mick Spiers: 37:38

Yeah, yeah, that's it, right? So, but then what I'm loving, Phil is, in that dialog, you're really then having a dialog about, well, what are your strengths? What are my strengths? What do you need from me? What do you need me to stop doing? What do you need me to do more of and you're almost developing a contract with each other about what role am I going to play versus what role you're going to play on what we need from each other, and why I use the word contract is, then I'm hearing that you set up a frame of accountability. Once we agree to this, how are we going to keep each other to account for what we agreed and the fact that you said that you can find me if I don't do this, that's a that's a commitment, but it's also an accountability framework that we're not just having a nice conversation, we're going to do this. How does that sit with you?

Philip Wilson: 38:27

Yeah, and we were upfront with everybody about that, like once we decided, and I think that was a that was an important step for the organization, like for them to see me admitting that I Okay. I see how I was creating problems, not just for Debbie, but for everybody, and my own committing to this is a system that we're going to run. This is a system that Debbie is going to actually be in charge of. I am on the leadership team, but she's running it. We're all going to be doing that system together. And then, of course, you have to prove it through your walk, right? Do you actually have the discipline of the meetings that you're supposed to have? Do you actually hold each other accountable? Are you transparent with kind of what's going on, whether we're winning or losing, all of those things are you know, that's how you drive the culture forward, but it starts at the beginning, with those relationships and so that, you know, and that's again, this isn't, I'm not here like EOS has transformed our company, and I think it's an incredible system. The magic is not that system. There's lots of other systems that you can use to run and your department. If you're listening to this, your department, your company, probably already has, like, a structured way that it does stuff. I'm not saying to do something different than the structure. The key though is, are you having these conversations? Whatever structure you need, you know you have, there's still at the end of that relationships. That's what's important.

Mick Spiers: 39:58

It's the human beings. The human beings are. The relationships are going to make the difference between whether people can do their very best work, or not including yourself like in that. Yeah, very good. All right, Phil, you've given us a lot to think about, and I'm going to unpack quickly some of the the lessons and some and some calls to action that we've given people today. So you had me at the start with the hero assumption, and we default to the villain assumption. So check in with yourself if you keep on making these conclusions of, oh, that person just did that because they're out to get me, or they're doing this on purpose. They're a jerk, etc, know that that's your natural state, and you have to do a pattern, interrupt to it differently, so check in with yourself. Notice and name it when you do it, and then reframe it to the hero assumption of actually, no, they were trying their best. Let's get curious about what they were trying to do. The second one was the approachability and the power distance gap. You know that you have a power distance gap between you and your boss. Now know that your team have a power distance gap to you, and you can take intentional actions to shrink that gap, by being open, by being approachable, by listening with curiosity, by following through on the things that you agree to, you can close and shrink that power, distance gap, it will still exist, but you can shrink it. Is the key point here. The other one about, you know, imagine all the time that you're you're on top of Mount stupid. Go in with curiosity in every conversation. If you think that you have all the answers, you're just fooling yourself, and you're frustrating everyone else around you, and remember that you may well be the worst judge of your own leadership. So have these dialogs that Phil is very lucky that he had someone that that opened up to him and said, Actually, no, you're you're not living by the things that you tell us. So you need to have those conversations with people, and I like the prompted once, Phil, where you said, you know, amongst these nine things, which do you think I'm the best at? Which do you think I'm the worst at? It can be a prompted conversation to really get people to open up and share with you about your leadership. So Phil, thank you so much for this. I'm going to take us now to the our Rapid Round. These are the same four questions we ask all of our guests. So what's the one thing you know now, Phil Wilson, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Philip Wilson: 42:27

I don't know about 20, but like when I first started, like working in our company, like I wish, I can't even remember when traction was was written, but I wish that I had traction in in my hands when I first started out as a leader of a company I you know, we've, we've made this really incredible transformation over the last five years, but we could have been on a 25 year run if I had learned some of those lessons and and I'm not sure if I was ready back then, but, But I do feel like if I had the framework and just this, this idea of the things that make me really good at what I do, actually can be very harmful in an organization if you don't have other people that are doing, you know, if I try to do the stuff I'm not good at, and then don't let The people that are good at that do it. Just learning that lesson has made a giant difference in the not just in the like, our company is more successful, but our culture is transformed. We're watching team members who've worked here for a long time. It's not like we were some terrible company, but people are really stepping up and blossoming in a way that we were holding them back. I was not we. I was holding them back because I wasn't the leader I should have been.

Mick Spiers: 43:48

Thank you for sharing that so openly, and I think it's one that we can all take away. Film that's great. What's your favorite book then?

Philip Wilson: 43:55

Well, it's not traction, although I love traction. I thought it was going to my favorite book is The Count of Monte Cristo. So it's a I was an English major in college. I actually didn't read that in college or high school, but that's my favorite book of all time. And I do read a lot of books. I would say, if I, if I was picking a business book, probably I love the Coaching Habit. I don't know if you know that book, but super practical. Michael Bungay, stand yet, yeah, yeah. So Michael's book is, I've got a picture somewhere, and it's in my bookcase back here, but I think there was really, I shouldn't have dog eared pages, because, like, every page is dog eared. I sent him a picture of that right after that book came out. But it's a, it's a terrific business book.

Mick Spiers: 44:45

Yeah, I agree. It's one that changed the way I approach with different questions that I ask. And, yeah, very good. Okay, what's your favorite quote?

Philip Wilson: 44:55

Salvatore ambilando, which is Latin for it is. Solved by walking. And I first learned that from a website The Art of Manliness. Brett McKay has a great website still, still there that that he talks a lot of, you know, a lot a lot of covers a lot of different ground. But one episode he talks about is this idea of the importance of walking, and like, if you're struggling with something, whether it's a problem or even a relationship issue, I would even say, as a leader, if you've got something you're wrestling with, with someone on your team, go for a walk.

Mick Spiers: 45:32

Yeah, good. I like that, and the change of environment, everything about that, it might even help with that power, distance, dynamic that we're talking about here. Really good. Finally, Phil, people are going to be really enthralled by what they've heard today, and they may want to know more. They may want to get copies of the book or understand more about you and your services. How do people find you?

Philip Wilson: 45:54

The easiest two ways are your leadershift.com so just all one word, your leadershift.com LinkedIn, is another great way to connect with me. I was on that in the very early days, so I am just linkedin.com/pbwilson.

Mick Spiers: 46:09

Very good. All right. Well, thank you so much, Phil, thank you for your humility in sharing your own personal journey and story throughout today, and most importantly, thank you for the nuggets of gold and the very actionable insights that all of us can practice the things that Phil has asked us. It starts with looking in the mirror, and then secondly, it starts with taking intentional actions on the things that Phil has shared with us. I personally feel richer for this conversation today, Phil and I'm going to take action around things like the hero assumption. I'm going to be taking action on things that you shared with us today as well. Thank you so much.

Philip Wilson: 46:47

Thank you. Mick, thanks.

Mick Spiers: 46:49

What a powerful conversation with Phil Wilson. Before we close today, I'm going to ask you this, where is power distance showing up between you and your team? Which assumption Do you default to in conflict, villain or hero? And what's one behavior? Right space, right feeling or right action? You'll change this week so people feel safer coming to you. Here's your 24 hour challenge. Do a quick approachability audit. Ask three people, what's one thing I do that makes it easy to approach me and what one thing gets in the way. Pick one relationship where you'll consciously make the hero assumption and stay curious and choose one follow through. You can deliver fast to prove your word is good. If you want to build a model of leadership based on approachability, it all starts with you. You can do this in the next episode. It's going to be a solo cast where I'm going to reflect on the lessons that we've learned from all of our wonderful guests during September, and add in a few of my own reflections on what's happening in the world today with regard to leadership. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project, mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP, Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo And my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.