282. The Power of Generous Leadership with Joe Davis

Leadership transformed through the power of giving – this is the core of our conversation with Joe Davis, former head of North America for Boston Consulting Group and author of The Generous Leader. With 37 years of leadership experience, Davis challenges the old command-and-control model and shows how generosity unlocks greater outcomes. As he puts it, "Leadership isn't about yourself, but about unlocking the capabilities of those with whom you work."

His philosophy is built on seven pillars: connecting personally, listening generously, showing vulnerability, practicing inclusivity, serving as an ally, developing others, and recognizing contributions. Vulnerability, in particular, proves powerful. Davis notes, "I think 'I don't know' are three of the most powerful words any leader can use." Rather than weakening authority, honesty builds trust and sparks team creativity.

The discussion also turns practical with lessons on timely, specific feedback. Davis recalls failing early in his career by saving feedback until year-end reviews, learning instead that coaching must be ongoing. Whether you lead a team or an entire organization, this episode offers actionable ways to elevate your impact through generosity. Which of the seven will you focus on first?

🌐 Connect with Joe:
• Website: https://www.joedavis.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joedavis1313/

📚 You can purchase Joe's book on Amazon:
• The Generous Leader: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1523006617/

Chapters

• 0:00 The Power of Generous Leadership
• 8:31 Authenticity: Leading Without Masks
• 17:57 Seven Factors of the Generous Leader
• 27:43 Generous Communication and Listening
• 34:56 Development and Creating Meaningful Moments
• 51:21 Key Takeaways and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

What if I told you the greatest power a leader has is the power to give. In a world where leadership is often seen as command and control, what happens when leaders choose generosity instead?Today, I'm joined by Joe Davis, former head of North America for the Boston Consulting Group and author of the inspiring new book The generous leader, seven ways to give of yourself for everyone's gain. Joe brings decades of leadership experience at the highest levels, and now he's here to share how generosity, humility and humanity can transform the way we lead. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Joe Davis. Joe was the former head of North America for the Boston consultant group, and had a very decorated career with that organization, helping organizations around the world to improve their businesses. But He's also the author of a new book called The generous leader, and that's what we're going to lean into today. What does it mean? What does it mean to be a generous leader? The word servant leadership is is often talked about, sometimes in a negative way. So we're going to unpack that as well and lean into what it means to be this generous leader. And I'm dying to get into this so without any further ado, Joe, I'd love it if you say hello to the audience once again, congratulations on your decorated career. Then I want to know why this book, what inspired you to write this book, and what inspired you to write this book now?

Joe Davis: 1:38

Well, first off, Mick, great to be here. Thank you. Thank you for the very kind words. I'm glad you didn't go through my entire career, because it's just not really that necessary. So the book, well, you know, as you said, it's called the generous leader, seven ways to give up yourself for everyone's gain, and what really, I'm just a big believer, and now we need leaders. Need to bring their human self to work, not completely, not 100% but things have changed. And you know, you and I are looking for some humanity from our leaders and vice versa. Now, what inspired me, it's actually, I mean, there's years of learning that's from 37 years of BCG. It's fixed at Procter Gamble, of course, years of learning after we went through covid, which had all kinds of bringing together the best of the worst of your management capabilities, you might say, and your leadership capabilities, and then my colleagues said, You ought to write a book about management, actually, or leadership. I did a start actually, had a Harvard Press Write it. She goes no book, because it was quite heavily on covid. It was by time the book's out, which takes them two years to get a book out, no one wants to read about covid. And she actually suggested bring more stories in, bring other executives in, and talk about what you consider this type of leader, what you call it servant or generous or leading with the heart, whatever, I think is critical. I also one other quick answer that you know, I learned as I was writing that the average business book sells 247 copies. And you know, if Brene Brown was selling a million and Adam Grant Malcolm badger, most of us are selling 10, I thought, oh my gosh, is this even worth it? And a friend of mine said, Joe, if you write the book and get inspire eight people to change their leadership behavior, in some ways, obviously, for what I consider the positive, and this friend of mine, that'll be worth it. Now, my goals are now bigger than eight people, but that's, that's really I thought, Okay, that's a goal I can strive for. So and then it's just, you know, it's fun. It's a lot of work to write a book, as you probably know, but it's fun, and it's fun when it sounds that's for damn sure.

Mick Spiers: 3:39

Yeah, yeah. Really good, Joe. I love the message there around impact, the impact of your message. And it is far more than eight to be clear. But have a think about that for a second. People spend up to 1/3 of their life in the workplace, and the difference between whether they have a very good day or a very bad day usually rests at the feet of their leader. So it's not just eight people you're impacting, it's it's the eight teams that you're impacting, and that's the families of those teams, because the people are going home feeling like they had a good day and they're not stressed out and all this kind of stuff. But it's far more than eight. But what I want to tell what I was trying to say, is there's a multiplication effect even there, even if it was only eight. Now, something interesting that you said there, you use the word human. You use the word humanity. You use the word bring yourself. Now, the challenging question to start that is how it should be. What I want to know from Joe Davis, with all of your decades of experience, not to make you sound old, by the way, Joe, but with your decades of experience, what prevents people from showing up as their authentic self? It's a great goal. It's an obvious goal. It doesn't work all the time?

Joe Davis: 4:54

No, and I think you know, there's so many things depending everyone's a little bit different, right? I.Mean, some of us said I was 40 years of work experience. Let's say some of us, you know, we might have come from a time where, hey, nine to five, work is work. Home is home. Separate them that it could be as simple as that to don't show yourself, don't cry, don't say you don't know, always be on top of it, which is really inauthentic, unless you're perfect. And I haven't met that person yet. That person yet. You know that can be drilled into or just a simple fear of looking weak or of exposing yourself. But I think as a leader, a lot of it is they think, gosh, I have to appear to be in charge all the time and know exactly where I'm going all the time. Isn't that what I was taught? And if the minute that wobbles, a lot of leaders start to get more uncertain, I actually argue, if you are uncertain and it wobbles and they see it, you're actually gonna inspire people to follow you more. But we can go deeper into that.

Mick Spiers: 5:54

Yeah, so one of the things that you said there was the fear of not knowing the answer, or that you're going to be seen as weak if you don't know the answer. But that's that's going to be a recipe that we just continue to exacerbate that. So you use the word fear there. I'm I'm curious here, Is it fear? Is it the fear of, I don't know, almost imposter syndrome, that I'm going to be caught out, that I'm in a job that I should never have given or is it, or is it that we're just mimicking the behavior of the leaders that came before us? A combination of those things? What do you think it is to?

Joe Davis: 6:28

Well, my sense, of course, was to be a combination. I mean, whomever your mentor was, or someone you admired, whatever they might have inspired, but if they were someone that was quite open and vulnerable, you're not going to be that way. I actually think more it's fear I may indulge with a story. I had a friend of mine asked him about, you know, when does he stepped over his line and showed more vulnerability or authenticity, whatever, and he told me a story. So, you know, I was afraid to say, I don't know, in front of to my teams, he's a black males are a little bit caught up and oh, gosh, you know, I can't look like even more so in his in his head, you know? And he said one time, oh, he said, What would happen if his team started to get lost? He would leave the room before they might turn to him and say, What do you think we ought to do if he didn't know the answer, either, he wouldn't say, I don't know. Now, that's not very productive, as you might get imagined. So one time he stayed and he said, this was, you know, he realized this is just utter waste time. And he said, I don't know either. And he said it was stunning to him, because instead of thinking, Oh, what's wrong with you, it was like this burst of energy, Oh, you don't know. We don't know. None of us know. Well, let's now team together to come up with the answer. And so this creative energy was unleashed because others fears, oh, if he can admit, or she can admit they don't know, I guess I can admit I don't know. Oh, I guess I can maybe start asking questions, start brainstorming, etc, you know. And you open, you just unlock others roadblocks, whatever they you know, whatever they might be. And saying, I don't know, because I'm sometimes always Joe, you say vulnerable. You're supposed to cry. I think you can say, I don't know it. I think that's vulnerable, but it isn't the end of the world.

Mick Spiers: 8:07

Yeah. So I think it's three of the most powerful words that any leader can use. And my lived experience is the same as yours. It opens up a floodgate of other people going, Yeah, I don't know either. Let's talk about it. And before you know it, you're in co creation. You don't have to be the smartest in the room. Your job is to create an environment where everyone can co create the answer. Not you don't have to have all the answers, but it can be a hard hurdle for people to overcome. Joe, so what advice could you give if someone's listening to the show right now and they're going, Yeah, that's me, too. I don't I'm still stuck in the limiting belief of if I say I don't know, it's a sign of weakness. What advice could you give to someone that's still living that today? How can we get them to take that first step?

Joe Davis: 8:51

Well, I mean, the one obvious thing, since I'm kidding a little bit, but since I don't know, isn't that hard. Just say it and see what happens. Well, if it doesn't work, the next day will be fine. The next minute will be fine. But I was once. I asked a friend of mine about this, or not once, as I was writing the book, and he said, Well, Joe, what he remembers? He said, I used to look back whatever years of something that happened, where I exposed myself, and it's very vulnerable, and I thought, Oh my God, but lo and behold, I made it through. Look what happened. It was better, you know, it didn't hurt. So one thing I might suggest is just think back to a time where you are more more vulnerable than you might have wanted to be, and what happened. I mean, you're successful, you're in a leadership job. So things continued on and then, and then take, take a little step. Another person gave me counsel that this, this a female leader. She said, I'll always watch when any other leader, Expo, you know, expresses some some authenticity or vulnerability. I don't want to copy them, but just how they do it, how the people react to it. It's usually not shut down. It's usually with, as you just said, openness. So I think the one thing is one simple step, think. Back to a time say, Hey, I made it through that, and look for a chance to expose a little bit of uncertainty so you unleash the others.

Mick Spiers: 10:08

Yeah, really good Joe, and it's certainly not terminal. It's exactly the opposite. And if you're if you're paying attention, and it can be to other leaders around you, yeah, what happened when that person said, I don't know. Did it? Did the world end? No, it didn't. It actually unlocked a conversation that needed to be happen. Yeah, really good. All right, so let's get into this term, the generous leader. I said at the start that servant leadership. And to be clear, I'm a fan, and yeah, I fully subscribe to servant leadership, and I believe our job is to create the environment where people can do their very best work and to be a multiplier and unlock the world for them, and remove barriers and all this kind of stuff. But the word servant leadership is a sticking point for some people, and I've come across people that have told me this directly, saying, well, then I'm not a servant. And it brings up thoughts of servitude and all this kind of stuff. So I'm really pleased to hear you use the word generous leader.

Joe Davis: 11:06

Use my word then, right?

Mick Spiers: 11:07

Yeah. So, so how, how do we move the world forward to realize that, no, this is, this is a good thing. It's not a bad thing.

Joe Davis: 11:15

Yeah. And, you know, let me describe First off, when I say the generous leader, what I mean, quite simply, as someone who gives them the leader who gives them themselves freely, without expectation of direct personal benefit, to help others grow, thrive, you know, develop, grow and thrive at their full potential. That's what you're really doing. As you just said, it's not about paying more. Some people tease me, and it's not. It's not about just being nice. This may be where sometimes your leader, Joaquin duato, I mean, first I'll say myself. You know, if you don't get results as a leader, you lose your job. So you've got to get the results. Now I think, as Joaquin do Otto, CEO of J and J said to me, so you know, Joe, of course, outcomes matter, but the sooner you as a leader, realize it's not about yourself, but it's about unlocking the traits, the human capabilities, of those with whom you work, the sooner you will get to the best outcome. Now that's just one guy, CEO bunch, video, pretty successful company, but you know, he The point is you, just as we talked about authenticity and vulnerability, you need everybody else to be humming, and you, by the way, will win. But if that's your goal, if they just think, Oh, I just wanted, I'm gonna make all you work. So I'm a superstar. They smell that, they feel that you're not gonna move them. If it's all about if you're great and you're great and you're great, oh, and by the way, the outcomes are exceptional, and I, as a leader, get credit, you know, so be it. It's this, when I was on the west, led the west coast to BCG for a while that it was, it was performing okay, but not the level of it should have been. And I did have pretty nice run. It turned around dramatically. And I was very impressed with my own firm, because I was on the it's funny, I was on the review committee of the partners, except when we had to review ourselves. We'd step out and get review then come back in the room. Was very weird dynamic, like the feedback to me is, hey, Joe, this is great. West Coast was humming. You're having a good year. But if we look at all the people in the West, they've all stepped up their game, and that's the real value. And I was so proud of my own firm for acknowledging that's what the benefit me and the leadership in that role brought not that I did well, but that everybody else did. So then, of course, if you step away, hopefully their game, you know, the game continues, and it should continue if you really helped them develop to different level.

Mick Spiers: 13:32

Yeah, if you've unlocked their potential and you've been the multiplier, yeah, they might grow to greater heights than anyone could have ever imagined, and outgrow your team and but, but the impact is, is huge. Let me share one other limiting belief that some people have around this same thing, and that is around alignment, right? So the the other thing, if you, if you go to purist into into servant leadership, and just take what you hear on face value. The fear is then, okay, so I'm going to go to my team, let's assume it's a team of seven, and I'm going to say to them, okay, what would you like to do today? And I'm going to be funny here for a minute. Joe, obviously no one. It would never be like this, but you end up with 120 well, I'd like to do a bit of mickrami today, and another one says, Well, I'd like to play golf today. And I'm being silly, but what I mean is, how do you get the alignment so everyone is rowing in the same direction in this kind of environment where you are engaging them in the journey, but making sure that we're still all pointing in the same direction. We still have purpose, we still have a mission that we're trying to achieve. How do you align this approach of that engaging and empower, empowering your team, and saying, I empower you, I entrust you, but then make sure that everyone's got their eye on the greater purpose?

Joe Davis: 14:54

Yeah, I mean you actually asked quite a rich question, like, I think about, answer without spending too. Look at that. I mean, at first I'm going to say, I assume, well, it doesn't matter if you're running a soccer team as a coach, or if you're running a business, you're I assume you want to win in the soccer team. Let's maybe if it's four year olds, you have to win, so, you know. But if you're playing high school coach, you want to win, you know. So the first off, but I'll use business. You are running a business, the job is outcomes. You know that they know that everybody else, so let's don't forget that. So someone said, I want to go fishing. What the blank really? Okay, go fishing, just don't come back. I'm teasing, but that's as much as you were teasing. But first, then I do think there's time ago, but actually it's quite important, and that's just not human leaders. Leader, you know that people are clear on where you're going. And I was actually learning lessons, because I like to talk about it in terms of numbers. My colleague said, JoJo, but you gotta Inspire. Tell me the soft side of where we're going, what's it gonna feel like when we got there? So I learned, okay, I like to leave with numbers, and it's very clear what to do. This other person I you know, you gotta bring both messages. You don't know how people are going to click to, you know, where are we going. So that's some clarity on where not some is be very great clarity on where we're going. But then I think more along the lines of the generous leader part, if you are growing, developing and inspiring people, they're not going to say, I'm going to go fishing. I mean, if they're having an off day and need to go fishing, so be it. I mean, that's life, you know, the day off, like whatever. But you know, then they're going to want, they're going to want to go with you. If they understand we're in the driving outcomes, and they understand where the outcomes are, you know, then people are looking for ways to, how do you contribute? I mean, it's, you know, I talk about being inclusive. Now, I know there's inclusive in the sense of de and I, which I also care deeply about. But in this context, I mean, be inclusive of your people, and have them engaged in the thinking. And, you know, not everybody can be in every meeting, but I used to be quite active. That's something somebody could do. You know, just bring one or two people that don't normally participate in your your planning meetings or whatever, into the room, ideally, maybe someone a little more junior than usual, ask them some questions. They're going to be nervous. But, you know, don't beat them up. Just bring them into the room. And I had people said, Joe, you'd always, you'd bring us in the room. And my gosh, when I kind of saw the thinking and where we were going, I walked out and thought, what else can I do beyond just my role to actually contribute to this? Because now I get more than my little piece. And besides, not besides the fact that when you bring them in the room and ask a question, they feel included, they feel inspired, they feel motivated, they feel good. Oh, you actually recognize I'm in here. But I would say when I walk in a room, I'll always look for the least, the most junior person, and I'll talk to them immediately. And first my chief staff or my call, I always look, how are you whatever? And I was like, Oh, wow, this leader cares about everybody in the room, not just, you know, his team, his or her team.

Mick Spiers: 17:51

Yeah, really good, Joe. So I'm going to paint a picture of everything that I was imagining when, when you're talking, and I've seen these things with my own eyes. And for people listening to this, is it? This is another leap of faith. But I'm going to say trust Joe and I on this one, that it really works about the power of asking questions. So let me paint the picture then. So what I'm hearing from you, Joe is, yes, we do need to have a vision of where we need to go. There was an adaptive leadership element in there that some people want to know what is our target financially. Other people, it's an emotional journey for them. So you have to adapt to the way someone likes to be led. So that requires a conversation there as well to understand your people. But then we are painting, painting the vision of this is the top of the mountain that we're trying to climb team. But then you're turning to them and saying, Now we know where we want to go. How do you think we should get there? And then it becomes a conversation, not a direct not a direction. And that could be in strategic meetings once a month, once a quarter, but it could even be in the weekly meeting, Joe. And this is the leap of faith I want people to think about, if you're the type of leader that comes in at the Monday morning meeting, and start saying, right team, by the end of this week, we need to have gotten here. And Joe, I need you to do this. And Sally, I need you to do this. What I'm going to say is, if you listen to Jo and you reverse that and turn it into questions, and you said to the team, hey, team, what do you think is our most important objective this week? And what makes that important, and how do you think we might achieve it? And what obstacles might we overcome? All of a sudden, they're included in the conversation that that was what was ringing in my head when I was listening to you, Joe, how does how does that sit with you?

Joe Davis: 19:31

Oh, that sounds great. And actually, I will tell you all the executives I interviewed from Brooke, every single one I've said the number one thing is that asking questions of somebody else, and their main trick is to make sure they ask the right question. They also learned in my consulting career, it's a little different, but especially if you say how we can get the week the context look. But I used to always tell my team, make sure you engage with skeptics and uncover the nose, because, you know, in our client work, we have to get someone to move, and if you skip, oh no, I've got the best. Dancer, I'm BCG, except you don't know everything you know, and then you get in the meeting, oh, something sidetracks you. Everyone says, What the hell consulting firm? So go. And the funny thing is, the no ologists are rarely blockers. Maybe one out of 1000 is trying to be a pain most the time. They do know something about what is wrong, what won't work, and the minute you know that you can help solve it, you know. So it's a version of yours. How do you think we get there? People also, no, but let's be careful too, because people do want to know that. Well, I guess we started that there is a path we're going towards. They don't want the leader to be every day coming. What are we gonna do today? I'm lost. I mean, I'm not. We're neither of us are saying that that Kirby said to me, when covid He was going to go on his CEO united, and he didn't know when the planes were gonna fly. And he said to his team, well, I gotta talk to the group and say, you know, to the employees on some big video and say, No, I'm not sure we're gonna fly. You can't say that. You can't he said, Well, what am I gonna do lie? I mean, nobody knows we're gonna fly. If there's any time to be vulnerable. It was that time, right? Because it was, but even then, his management it's not fair, and some of his management team was, oh, no, no, you, but you're the CEO. You can't show that uncertainty. But that uncertainty was inspiring to people, because he also said, now, let's all figure out together how to get from here to there. How do we hold it together in the meantime, you know, we included them. He didn't just wear them.

Mick Spiers: 21:19

I'm going to say that builds trust, Joe, because chances are people in the room know it anyway. And when you open up and say, team, this is where we're at, people relax and go, Oh, okay, so the boss is telling the truth. This is great. So Bill, I think it builds trust. The two things that I picked up, they're really good, the skeptics and the no ologists, that's that term is gonna stick with me now forever. So the skeptics, if you don't engage the skeptics, they'll remain skeptical, and they'll drag their feet, is what I'm thinking. I'm also thinking that the skeptics might know what the barriers are, what the hurdles are that no one else is talking about. And if you don't talk about those why nots or the barriers that are going to stop you, they might come back to trip you up later. So engage the skeptics.

Joe Davis: 22:07

Yeah, no, you laid out in the room where we want to go, how we get there, what might be the roadblocks? I actually believe are in the roadblocks. I mean, if you can find all the roadblocks and make sure they don't happen, then the path will be to the right outcome. I mean, just think of it, the decision tree. You want to kill all the branches through the wrong ones, and then nothing's left but the good one. I had a brilliant at that. He just someone said, Oh, he does decision trees in his head. We always had good outcomes, but it's because he thought so hard about or engage with everyone's not going to work as we're not taking that. The only path left was so that's, yeah, no, the skeptics are the neurologists often, because they know this ain't gonna work. Why not? Boom, that's what you want. You solve it with them.

Mick Spiers: 22:52

Yeah, good one. And then the other part I was thinking with the the No ologist term that you used, which is beautiful. I'm also picturing that if you don't engage in the right way, that those people might not actually be listening to the others in the room because they already think they know it all. What's your secret answer? Particularly if there there are some people that have been in the in the business for 15 years, or something like or even longer, if you come across someone that portrays themselves as I know everything you can't tell you can't teach me anything to make sure that they're not just waiting for their turn to talk, that they're truly listening to the others around them, so that they walk away from a meeting richer than they walked in, rather than just walking away from the meeting with the same knowledge that they walked into. Any tips there?

Joe Davis: 23:38

Well, that's fine, because that kind of person almost has to be slapped around a little bit, is what's going through my mind. So, I mean, you know, I had someone really like that who thinks they always know it all, and therefore they become a blocker in a funny sort of way, right? Because, no, no, I would probably publicly expose them. To be honest with you, I would probably throw them in the meeting in in a way that they're not going to have the answer, or something's getting exposed, and it may hurt, but it's going to force them, like, Oh, I see, I got to think more. And, you know, if they constantly are that way, I can't fathom all stay on the job. No offense, but, you know, generous is one word. We are running a business, and people have to perform is the other word.

Mick Spiers: 24:18

I'm going to call that curated humility. So bring some humility to their life, yeah, but I think it can be done in a nice way. But, yeah, okay, yeah, interesting. Okay, all right. Now let's this has set the scene really well. Now, in your book, you talk about the seven factors of the generous leader. I'd like to unpack that now, Joe, so why there's seven So talk us through it. Or I can read it out if you wish, but talk us through the seven factors of what makes a generous leader.

Joe Davis: 24:49

Okay. And, you know, seven lots. So I'll be, I'll be pretty precise. I mean, pretty concise. I mean, one I talk about is connecting personally and deeply. In Utah, we said that earlier. You know, if you got. I i told you about the person that inspired by inspirational thinking and ideas others by numbers, but you need to take some time to figure out, how can I communicate in a way that they hear it? Because that's what you or words going blankly is a waste of your words. You're here. So we can go deeper than that, if we want. Then we talked a lot about this whole idea of generous, be curious, generous listening. And that is just a fundamental piece. I'm going to go out order, because I think if you're really going to be a generous listener and also say, What does Mick know that I don't know, you've got to be a little bit vulnerable, a little bit authentic. If you think all you have all the answers, you can't be a good listener. It just doesn't go together. I talk about, a lot about generous inclusion, which we discussed, which I really mean, bring people into the room, or engage with people three or four levels down that you might not normally engage with to get. One, they're inspired. And two, you tend to learn things you don't know, because you get, you know, all the layers out of your way. Um, the other one I do talk about, so I feel quite strong personally, is you, you know, being a generous ally, being an action ally, is what I mean by that, which really, I won't go deep in this we could, but actually enabling people to have opportunities, setting the objective for them to walk through the door perform. You don't do it for them. You don't ensure the perfect outcomes. You actually set up opportunities for people to have a chance to thrive and perform, and including those who have, I argue, less chances. That's a top that's a sensitive topic these days. Other things critical, which we've kind of talked around is this whole generous development, really, about recognizing people's strengths and where they need to work and push them hard to get better. And that's not just being nice. We could talk about that, but, you know, I could tell stories with very direct feedback to just unlock people. Now I had to think about, could I take could I do it? At that moment, I was, if they're down, you don't kick them. And then a very simple thing which people can do is, you know, call it small act, big impact, just capture the generous. You know, capture opportunities for generous moments. And the most simple in the world is send an email to someone. They do a lot of job. And maybe you copy your boss, or maybe you copy the entire team. People feel really good when they get to pat on the back. You know, you don't remember your paycheck going up very often. I don't think you remember when so and so said, Hey, that was a really hell of an and if somebody else knows it, you can share it with them. You remember that? So capture the generous moments. There's, you know, small impact. Small acts can have a very big impact, and they're quite easy to do. As a leader. It doesn't take time. It takes the effort to do it what we're talking about. So those are the seven I like, you know, really most importantly, listening when you're communicating, connect so they hear you, bring yourself to the world, so you are listed actually, and then help people grow and include people.

Mick Spiers: 27:48

Yeah, brilliant, Joe. Okay, so we get unpack it one at a time, just briefly. So, so the generous communication, let's start with that one. But I love that you just brought it straight to the word connectedness, like so making a connection with someone. And it plays back to what we were saying before, that not everyone is the same, and you're making me think of, you know, moving from the golden rule of treating people the way you want to be treated to the platinum rule of treating people the way they want to be treated. So you need to know your team, right? So you need to connect with your team, to know with them, and then you can communicate in the way that they want to be communicated with. How does that sit with you?

Joe Davis: 28:26

Yeah, well, so it's, well, I had just on the spirit of, how might you do some of these things that someone told me some tricks he used. One leader said he used to, when he say something before he was going to say whatever it was that he was an out scene, he bring, or even after he's got going. He brings someone in the room, you know, obviously less tenure, to him that he trusted and knew, and say, Hey, what are people saying? I'm saying and they'd say, Well, you're saying ABC. Listen, no, I'm saying XYZ. Oh no, sir, you're saying ABC. So, you know, he thought he was, I mean, Joaquin to auto was a good example when he got took over CEO of J, and J, he's talking about, we have to reduce complexity in the organization. And that's the person he asked. So, yeah, you just want to cut costs. And I never said that word, this thing's a message owner, but that's, you know. Of course, everyone thinks complexity is cost. Or what Joaquin also did that was clever. They wanted to give a talk to a large group. He'd bring a small group in and practice it, and they'd say, Okay, what did I say? And he might have said the word you know, phone and they heard the word you know, communication device, I don't know so. And he'd say, Oh, I'm going to write down the word they heard, not the word I used, and communicate in a way that people could hear. So it's pretty so that's it, but it's just actually making sure the words are landing in the way they are hearing them.

Mick Spiers: 29:40

Yeah, really good. There's a big lesson there. A human brain does this all the time. We take shortcuts, we extrapolate, we interpret meaning. Now the question is, did we interpret the meaning that was intended? And I'm going to say the world is full of conversations, Joe, where two people have walked. From the same conversation with that completely different understanding of what was just agreed. And I can tell you, I felt I've fallen into the I'll stick up my own hand on this one and say I've fallen into this trap multiple times, and I don't always get this right. But what I tried to do now, particularly my one on ones, is one of the questions I asked at the end of the one on one is, so what if we agreed today, and I get them to play back, and I can go, no, no, that's not at all. Or it could be a launch, right, yeah?

Joe Davis: 30:28

Very it's a very simple line that might waste, you think a minute, but it saves hours of someone doing the wrong thing. And get those hours back, you can get your minute lost is worthwhile.

Mick Spiers: 30:40

Yeah, Very good. Okay, all right, excellent, generous listening. Okay, so I want to test something with you here that I think is part a little bit of what we were just saying about some of the extrapolation as well. One of the things I see a lot is confirmation bias takes over in our listening as human beings, us and our teams, they start hearing the things that confirm what they already believe, but they're not truly listening with an open mind to new ideas. How do we check in with ourselves, maybe before a meeting or something? How can we break this kind of trend of confirmation bias ruling what we're really processing in those meetings, so that we're truly open to the ideas?

Joe Davis: 31:24

Yeah, well, I will say one thing out to your point of confirmation bias. Some people are just intellectually stubborn, and it's very hard. I don't even know what to do with I mean, I've watched it at the consulting firm. People lose their job eventually, because, you know, if I can't listen to you as a client and hear what's on your head, in your head, and then decide how to move forward. You know, you're not going to keep hiring me. I think, you know, I was, as you said that. I think there's two things. I think there probably comes back to the same thing you just said on the other one, ask your own question. Okay, everybody, this is what I think I heard. Boom, boom, boom. Is that where we are now. You have to be humble enough to do is so much comes back to this willingness, I don't know, because you're admitting, oh, I may not have known, but that's not a very hard thing to do either. It's also saves a lot of time. But you, if you're really a stubborn listener, actually think you won't get very far as a leader, so you're not going to be in the position to be honest with you. But that's one trick I think, is bright productive. So I heard this and this and this, did I get that right? We actually said this. Oh my god. What did I miss?

Mick Spiers: 32:25

Yeah, excellent, Joe, okay, all right. Then we spoke about the authenticity and bringing our true self. I want, I want to use the term from your book, because it really caught my attention. I want the audience to hear this, give up the mask, give up the mask. And I sometimes say it like this, Joe, that as you imagine on TV shows or in the acting world today, the role of leader is played by played by Joe Davis, no, you're not playing a role. You're bringing, you're promoted into a leadership role because someone saw something in you. Just bring yourself to the table. How does that sit with you?

Joe Davis: 33:01

Yeah, that's, that's very well, I think, of a good friend of mine, BCG, guy who was, he was handsome, his wife was attractive. His three kids were perfect. He was above everything. Was always perfect. So perfect. And he always, and he thought that was the image he should portray. You know, it was just there was no humanity there. And one time I said to him, I said, you know, you're a great leader, but nobody thinks you care. Oh my and I said that, like at eight o'clock at night, he was asking for some feedback. He said, Joe, I couldn't sleep all night. I care deeply. I said, well, then you can't always act like everything is absolutely perfect, because the rest of us are afraid of you. We can't even know, you know. We don't know, interact like, well, I can't be him. I can't be his family, so we're stuck, and therefore we don't, even if you do care, we can't process it. Oh, it was just shocking to him. It's just not a version of this authenticity. But you know, if people see a human there and a few mistakes, you can't make mistakes every day, but a few mistakes there's like I can, you know, and if you know. And if you do that with, we haven't talked about development yet, but if you do that with listening to people, including them in meetings, asking their questions, you know, engage with them ways they hear the whole package works together.

Mick Spiers: 34:11

Yeah, really good. I'm going to challenge the audience to think about all the teams that you've worked in, all of the organizations. Was there one person that you've come across in your career that you were always scared to tell the truth to, or even scared to talk to at all, but, but you didn't want to take them bad news or whatever, then, yeah, it can be like what Joe is saying here, so and you don't want to replicate that behavior yourself, because you're then going to be that person five years from now, it's going to be you that People aren't talking to Yeah, really good. All right, let's, let's go to generous inclusion. Something that you said earlier that really caught my attention, that you, when you walk into the room and you look at the most junior person, you ask their idea first, I love that on multiple levels. And what was I was thinking of is, I think this came from Nelson mande. Ella's father, even the thought of being the last one to speak. Because if you come into the room and say, right team, I want to hear your ideas today. Here's my idea. But what's your idea? He's just going to repeat what you said. So, so tell us more about how make, how do we make sure that we're really collecting the ideas in in this inclusive way?

Joe Davis: 35:22

Isn't it pretty simple, ask questions and keep your mouth shut. Sorry, but I think, but I let me go one deep level deeper, because even with what you said, if you ask questions, keep your mouth shut and you're number one and you're number two, answer all the questions, then everybody else gonna shut up.

Mick Spiers: 35:43

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was picking up on. Yeah.

Joe Davis: 35:43

They're brave enough to speak. So I really do think it's, I mean, I actually, yeah, it's funny, because I'll think, okay, who should I miss a meeting about that finance work? So let's bring a couple of finance Allison, oh, Joe, they can't come in the room. They're too they can come in the room. The other boss is petrified, because what are they gonna they're only gonna tell what the data said, but bring a couple people in the room who may have done the work. And I'll tell you, countless executives told me the same thing, and then, but then ask them the question, first, let them describe the analysis. Let them describe it, whatever it might be. Now, you got to be most, I said this once, but they're going to be petrified, probably, you know, all these big, whatever bosses. So you got to really make sure you bring them into the room. The other thing I think I try to do, if you're going into a meeting like that, is, who's here, you know, prep a bit. Who's here? What might I ask one or two of the less tenured people, just to open them up, those are having a time? Well, you know, if you're walking 45 Well, if it's a zoom, if you're walking from getting a cup of coffee to the zoom. Think about you don't think, doesn't think, a lot of times they want to be on the phone with Mick. What might I ask Mick to you can do that? You're smart enough in 30 seconds, or you're walking down the hall. I think that's the important thing. Is ask questions of those who don't normally get an opportunity to speak, and you send old signal in the room, the whole room changes.

Mick Spiers: 36:59

Yeah, it's really good. So I like it's a very intentional act. I like the preparation as well. I think that's a hint, and that might help with the question I'm going to ask as a follow on, what about the introverts in the room, or even someone that might have a fear of speaking up, or fear of saying something stupid, etc? And it's not a founded fear, to be clear, but people have these fears. Joe, so you can't, we can't ignore it. How do we do this in a way that's not uncomfortable for, let's say, an introvert or not uncomfortable of feeling like you put someone on the spot?

Joe Davis: 37:34

Yeah? No, this is sort of this. I'm thinking, because I have a great example of this, but it's but you have to be thoughtful, because some people may really be introverted and really be scared, and so to go and ask a bunch of questions is just mean. You know, it's just mean. And I remember one time I had a finance person one of my offices, and I said to the person charging I said, Well, she never speaks. Said, Joe, she's petrified. So I actually said, had her come into my office and just described one on one, first time, very some of the analysis, and asked a few questions. And now I took the time I wanted to coach her, but I took the time to coach her to where she was comfortable talking about her work, and then I asked her publicly, but, but I had to find out what was wrong. I just didn't say, Oh, she's quiet. What's wrong with her? I asked her boss, what's going on, and I took the time to help her develop. You know, if I hadn't done that, she would have been stuck. You stuck. I think so that's, I mean, really, sometimes you just, you don't be, mean, you actually do some work to get them so they're comfortable in the room. But then the other thing you do ask, of course, if it, if you're not, if you're sure they're not petrified, just ask them something, you know they know something.

Mick Spiers: 38:38

That's a good way to start.

Joe Davis: 38:39

In the softball, what the hell you know?mThe point is not to get the most brilliant insight at the moment. And you may get a brilliant insight you don't know.

Mick Spiers: 38:47

Yeah, what I'm hearing there is work out how to get the ball rolling. What? What is help them get unstuck. And getting unstuck might be in private, and then start the ball rolling with something very easy for them to answer on the spot. Yeah, I like it.

Joe Davis: 39:02

Goes back to if you have to believe that developing them and growing them is better for everybody. If you don't believe that, you don't what we're talking about, right? I mean, this is the basic when the team hums, the odds are the organization's humming, the odds are the outcomes are great. And then you, as a leader, hum too. You've got to, you have to believe that.

Mick Spiers: 39:24

All right, great. All right. Next one is generous ally. Where does someone start? What does it look like, and where does someone start? How does someone take a baby step of being a good ally in the room?

Joe Davis: 39:34

Well, I guess the first thing you've got to do is, you know, is there somebody that you want to mentor, coach and create opportunities for but then the first step is, you have to ask them. And I learned sometimes, oh yeah, I'll speak so and so help them. They may or may not want your help. They may or may not be ready. Blah, blah, blah. You have to ask them and talk about what you know, where do they want to go? What are the aspirations? Etc. And then, so that's the first step. You. And and then have a conversation about, how can I help? Because I think too many people think, oh, okay, I'll just do it for you, or I'll just get you set up. You know, that's I had many people say, no, no, I don't want you to do it for me. I just want you to give me a chance. So look for opportunities to give them a chance, to let them, you know, engage that we just said, give them up, you know, walk through the door and and shine or not shine because they don't want you to do it for them. They still want your best coaching. You give your best coaching, anybody. But I think the first step is oz. There's someone in this organization that I'd like to really help. Now, when we use the word ally, we're talking about someone who, by definition, could we just switch it to mentor if you want it, but by definition, may not have the same opportunities to others for whatever reasons, you know?

Mick Spiers: 40:44

Yeah, so you're bringing equitable opportunity there. I really like that. But I love that. It starts with the conversation Joe, because I'm going to say that we talk about allyship a lot in the DEI world and in in business, we talk about allyship. Even in societies, we talk about allyship, but if you haven't had a conversation with the person about what would help them and what they need and what it looks like, your well intentioned actions may well do more damage than good, because you stepping in and doing it for them may disempower them, and you think that you're helping them, and all you've done is disenfranchise them, and they now they've got that bloody Joe he took the thing that I wanted to do, right? So all right, let's go to generous development. This is something that keeps on coming up in a lot of surveys around what people are looking for in the workplace, and opportunities for learning and growth are certainly that that comes into generous development. The other thing I loved you saying before is generous is not synonymous with nice. It doesn't have to be just Mr. Nice Guy all the time. So tell us what generous development looks like for Joe Davis?

Joe Davis: 41:52

Well, you know, it's interesting. I will. I'll talk with a story when I was, I think it was 2425 the Proctor and Gamble. I got promoted to the first level management. I had three sales reps. They were all, well, two of them are career sales reps. So I thought they're old guys who might be 45 I would ride with them every two weeks, you know, supposedly, to coach them and give them ideas and thoughts. Remember, I'm 24 I was petrified. I never said a thing. And then it came to the Year in Review. Got out my pen, wrote down everything they should do better based on whatever I'd learned in the manual and like. And I got started going through the review of my boss at the room with this guy rich. And I got in about three minutes, and he said, Wait a minute, Joe, what the blank are you doing? You arrive with me every two weeks, and you've never told me any of this. And the truth is, I was scared. I was 24 What do I tell a 40 year old? But the less, it took me a lot of years to process that never stuck. It stuck with me. And you know, what was the lesson that this person actually, every two weeks, even though I was a young snot, didn't want to hear what I had to say. They didn't want to grow and develop. They wanted, you know, they didn't appreciate the fear, and they sure as hell didn't appreciate. And I've learned a lesson here. You never give feedback at the end of the year on a piece of paper that somebody hasn't or there shouldn't be a single concept that they haven't heard of somewhere along the way. So it's really about, you know, it's really about helping others grow to be the best they can be. But it takes understanding their strengths so they can leverage them, understanding their areas of development, but importantly, tell me them, you know, and that's what I think you've asked roadblocks so many people. And the roadblock can be either I'm too Junior and fearful of it. I don't want them to think less of me and give me bad upward feedback, or whatever it might be, or I don't want anyone mad at me. You just get in your own, your own head, or just fear of being direct. I mean, the other thing I like to tell people is, you know, mushy feedback is horrible. I mean, hey, Mick, I loved your show. I would, but, you know, I kind of wish it could have been a little bit better. I love just shows or anything safe, but, you know, what could it be? What do you mean, a little bit better? What am I supposed to do with that? What's a little and I'll tell you, a good interest there one time where this was a little bit sad, but the concept of mushy, the person that BCG is an upright place, and this fellow wasn't going to make it up to the partner level. And his rep, his career rep, was described and telling him, you're not going to make it. I was in the room of the office, and the rep was going on and on. After maybe five or six minutes of even I didn't understand what the person was saying? He looks over to me and says, Am I being fired? And I said, Yes. Said, Oh, thank you. So six words. Now, I didn't like being fired, but it was clear to the point anything. And then let's now, let's move on to Oh, what do I do next? How do I, you know, move into the prompt. I'll tell one more story. Friend, another guy came over from Europe. He was a rock star in Europe, senior guy. He was underperforming in the US. He's two years into under performing, three years at a partner level. You're kind of in big trouble. And I knew he was bothering the hell out of him, you know, I thought about it to the time to think about, where is he and but so one day, I finally said, not fine. But I said to him, I said, you know, Sam. Sounds like either you go home, you quit, or I fire you, you pick. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to go home. So he was sitting there because he's a high performer, so he's used to doing well, he was stuck. He didn't want to face it, and he decided to go home. And people say, Well, how could you say that so harsh? I'm gonna fire you. I said because I thought about where he is, and I knew damn well he was there at night, losing sleep over what am I gonna do? I'm used to being a rock star, and now I'm stuck. He wasn't feeling good about himself. I had to think about him. I had to care about him. I had to think about the moment to say that. But and that took time. I wasn't four years in my job, and I was probably 25 years in the job, because that's in the job, because that's a you know, giving good feedback does take experience also, because you just have to learn a little bit. But I learned at 25 most everybody wants to hear feedback that's going to help them grow and develop.

Mick Spiers: 45:55

Yeah. Yeah really interesting, Joe. I'm going to come back to the very first story that you spoke about there and with the person that gets the feedback at the at the end of the year, I'm going to say, if you're a leader that's avoiding feedback, put yourself in that person's shoes. Imagine that you've been doing 12 months of work, and you find out at the end of the year you've been missing the mark. That's completely unfair. It's completely unfair. So the the feedback and drawing it to their attention is a gift. It's a it's a gift to help them to rectify it early, rather than waiting 12 months later to find out that they were doing it the wrong way or in a way that was not acceptable or.

Joe Davis: 46:32

Yeah, they could have been better.

Mick Spiers: 46:33

or could have been better, whatever. Yeah.

Joe Davis: 46:35

No, and the truth is, you're only paying a price yourself because your team isn't your team is, I mean, what you the way you just played that back to me, I was I get embarrassed. I said, Holy crap, that guy could have been doing better, which means I could have been doing better. What was wrong? 24 and scared, I learned, but not an excuse.

Mick Spiers: 46:55

It's very fascinating way to think about it. And then the clarity, the the clear is kind kind of message. Is what I was taking away there, Joe. And I'm going to say that for both the positive feedback and the constructive feedback, the more specific you can be, the more that they can repeat the good things and stop doing the thing that wasn't working. Right? So saying, like, Joe, you're a public speaker, you coming off the stage, and me saying, Joe, oh, that was great. It was great. It was fantastic. Doesn't actually help you that much. But if I said to you, Joe, I really love this part of the speech where you told this story or whatever, then you know specifically what worked for me, not not just I enjoyed your speech. How does that sit with you? Be specific for both the positive and the constructive fear?

Joe Davis: 47:40

Absolutely. Oh, that was really great, okay, but what could have been better? Like, come on, nothing's really great. Now I'm humbled. Oh, you know the thing one trick on that one, which is, you know, when you walk out of a meeting or a sales meeting or a pitch or whatever, you know, debrief yourselves right then and there. And, you know, do it with thoughtfulness. If somebody really messed up, it's a big thing to remember, too. I'm a big leader in being direct feedback. But if someone's really down, it ain't the time to kick them, you know, you got to think about them and somebody else. If someone just gets promoted at one man to say that's the best time, Joe, to go and tell everybody at that person everything they really got to work on. They're feeling so good about themselves right then that they will hear it process. It's interesting.

Mick Spiers: 48:26

Yeah, all right, very good and generous moments. You you spoke about the email, etc. I think this is your opportunity for people to see, feel seen and heard and valued the and they're the little moments. So when I want to share with you here. Joe is could be handwritten notes or or it could be just, here's one that I'm starting to practice more and more now. Joe is the is to remember something from a previous conversation and bring it into this conversation. Joe, I've been thinking about our last conversation, and when you said XYZ, have you thought about ABC? I think that's a show, a generous moment to show. I see you, I see you, I hear you. So and these can be micro moments that make all the difference. How does that sit with you, Joe?

Joe Davis: 49:13

that says beautifully is the word you probably use. But no, it's absolutely it is the micro moments that make a huge I tell I'm just going to steal your point. Because one of my colleagues, a junior person, said to me, says she's loves it. If she says to her manager, you know, hey, I got a big weekend, my kid has a soccer tournament, and that's a hill. Good luck to you. And then on Monday or Tuesday, if he said, Hey, by the way, how was that soccer tournament? How'd your son do? She's like, holy shit. She goes, literally, I will follow that person, not but to the ends of the earth, because he took, he took the time to remember, and it was 90 seconds. It didn't take the whole day. It didn't waste time. No, it's, you know, or just, I mean, I'm a big believer, and remember my team's birthdays. Now I cheat. I put on my calendar so I don't remember, and I send Happy Birthday. Hope you have a great day in the subject line. Everyone now, I've been doing it for 30 years now. So people, when I retired, I still do a lot of PCGS. They always wonder if the Joe Davis Happy Birthday is going to come to an end. And, you know, they know I put it in the computer, and they know I but they still loved it. And it's, it takes five minutes in the morning. You know, people say, oh my god, I gotta get on to the next thing. But finding those moments, like you said,

Mick Spiers: 50:21

They make all the difference. Really does. All right? So let's summarize it a little bit, and then we'll go to our Rapid Round, Joe, so the generous leader, all right, so have a think of what I want to inspire you to do. Have a listen to this list, and I want you to pick talking to the audience here. I want you to pick one and think about what you could lean in and do something a little bit more in these areas. So generous communication, generous listening. Give up the mask, but come to work as your authentic self, generous inclusion, the generous ally, generous development, generous moments. Which of these can you pick and lean into? And then once you've practiced that, you can go to the next one. And I absolutely Joe will not promote his book. He's too humble to do that. I'm going to promote it for him. Grab a copy of Joe's book, and you can lean into each of these seven. But go one at a time, and you'll start seeing a difference in your team. All right, Joe. Thank you so much. Let's go to our wrapper down. These are the same four questions we ask all of our guests. So what's the one thing you know now? Joe Davis, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Joe Davis: 51:29

I do wish I'd known better to shut up and listen and ask questions. And over the years, if one time, I'll just one quick puppy, real quick, someone said to me, she was telling me something, and I started to cut her off. She goes, you know, Joe, Would you just shut up and let me finish? And she said, this third time you've done this. And I thought I knew where she was going, but I may have been wrong and but hit me so hard that was 20 years in. I wish I had known that much earlier.

Mick Spiers: 51:56

Uh, yeah, okay, that one that is hard, that's really good, Joe. Okay, what's your favorite book?

Joe Davis: 52:03

That's a cheating question. So, you know, I think when people do ask me that I love the Shackleton endurance, I do love that book. Now I have fun with the Sarah Ma's fantasy books. All those series bring a fun one in, because once I read one of those, I don't stop. So those are problems.

Mick Spiers: 52:19

Yeah, right. Okay, yeah. All right. Very good. Now, what is your favorite quote?

Joe Davis: 52:24

Well, not in the famous quotes, but I will say from the move me recently, which was David Brooks. He talked about in his book, you know, think about in your you know, when you retire, there's a retirement speech which is often about, he drove business here, Joe business there. But when you die, it's a eulogy, which is about your legacy, and what is it that you want your legacy to be? And think about that when you're 30 and 40, not about the dying part your legacy, your business success. And I not quite a quote, but it really moved me, you know, think about your the legacy, describing your eulogy, not the retirement speech when you quit.

Mick Spiers: 53:01

Yeah. Well done, sir. Okay, I love it. I can finally, there's going to be people that are enthralled by this Joe and thinking about their own leadership, thinking about the development of their organizations around this concept of the generous leader. How do people find you? If they'd like to know more?

Joe Davis: 53:17

Well, quite I mean, if you want to find me, actually go on LinkedIn, I'll leave a message, I will respond, and I'll trade emails, and we'll connect, or how to connect, and I'm pretty good about tracking that you can all I have a website, joedavis.com, you can just hear more and what I think about, whether you're listening to podcasts or talks or whatever. And then if you want to read the book, obviously it's on Amazon, and the other and the other sites as they are,

Mick Spiers: 53:42

Yeah, brilliant, Joe, well, thank you. Congrats on the success of the book. Thank you for your time and sharing your wisdom with us today. You've given us a lot to think about, but also some actions that we can all take to become a better and more generous leader. Thank you so much.

Joe Davis: 53:58

Thank you, Mick, that was fun.

Mick Spiers: 54:00

What an enlightening conversation with Joe Davis. He reminded us that Leadership isn't about holding on to power, it's about giving it away. Generous leaders are present, they listen, they show humility, and they empower others to shine. When leaders bring their humanity to work, they create cultures of trust, connection and lasting success. Now it's your turn. How will you practice generous leadership? This week, share your reflections with us on LinkedIn or YouTube, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast so these lessons can reach even more leaders around the world. In the next episode, we'll be doing something a little different. I'll be hosting my solo cast where I'll be reflecting on the biggest lesson from all of our amazing guests during August and exploring what's happening right now in the world of leadership. It's a chance to step back, connect the dots, and look at. It together. Thank you for listening to The Leadership project, mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo And my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together..