271. Character vs Skills: Decoding the Hiring Dilemma with Dave MacDonald

What truly matters more in hiring—skills or character? Dave MacDonald, founder of Better Together Group, brings hard-earned wisdom to this age-old question. After being fired multiple times in his twenties ("I was a lousy employee"), Dave transformed these setbacks into powerful leadership lessons that now guide his successful HR and staffing business.

With refreshing honesty, Dave introduces us to his "WTF philosophy"—Work hard, Tell the truth, Finish the job—and explains how these principles shape his approach to identifying standout candidates. Through his powerful furnace metaphor, he demonstrates how the right combination of intensity (the fire), integrity (the firebox), and intentionality (the ductwork) creates teams that genuinely thrive together.

Beyond philosophical frameworks, Dave offers practical, immediately applicable interview techniques. Learn why asking for multiple examples of the same character trait reveals authenticity, how pattern interruption separates rehearsed answers from genuine responses, and when to prioritize filling a position versus waiting for the perfect candidate. His advice balances real-world business needs with the pursuit of character-driven cultures.

Perhaps most compelling is Dave's vulnerability about his own leadership journey. "I'm still very confident, but I'm also a scared little boy inside at times too," he admits, reminding us that authentic

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Hiring for Character
• 8:50 Dave's Journey to Better Together Group
• 10:49 [Ad] A Case Study In Corporate Fear
• 11:29 (Cont.) Dave's Journey to Better Together Group
• 18:39 Balancing Speed vs. Quality in Hiring
• 22:09 Skills vs. Character: What Matters More
• 27:19 The WTF Philosophy and Three I's
• 29:12 [Ad] The Ryan Pyle Podcast
• 29:58 (Cont.) The WTF Philosophy and Three I's
• 34:14 Effective Interview Techniques
• 38:44 Rapid Round and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

Have you ever hired someone with an impressive resume only to discover their values didn't align with your team? Or maybe you've wondered what truly sets standout candidates apart Is it talent or is it character? Today, we explore these questions and more with the incredible Dave MacDonald, founder and president of the Better Together Group. Dave is a bold and refreshingly honest leader who shares his journey from being fired multiple times in his 20s to building a thriving, people-focused business.

Mick Spiers: 0:37

Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Dave MacDonald. Dave, is the president and founder of an organization called the Better Together Group, an organization that brings skilled people together to help you with hiring new people, with payroll and with other HR services. And today we're going to talk quite a bit about that hiring element how to hire people with character, and I'm really curious to see Dave's perspectives on all of these things. What does it make to make a really good candidate that stands out in terms of their values and their character? So, without further ado , Dave, I would love it if you would say hello to the audience and I'd love to hear a little bit about your background and what inspired you to do the work that you do today?

Dave MacDonald: 1:26

Mick, thank you so much for the invitation and the opportunity. I really appreciate being here with you. Yeah, I was a lousy employee and got fired from a lot of good jobs and I recognized, I guess, pretty early on, that I needed to be self-employed. I was part of a family business when I was a child. I was part of a family business in my teens and eventually I wanted to start my own family business for my kids to be a part of. And so that combination of working in family businesses with my grandparents and with my parents and those were mostly side hustles but really enjoyable experiences and then getting fired because I'm a lousy employee meant that I should start my own business and eventually that turned into a Better Together group.

Mick Spiers: 2:19

Yeah, very good. So tell me, what does a lousy employee look like for Dave MacDonald?

Dave MacDonald: 2:23

Oh man. So I was in my twenties and so, like most people in their twenties, I thought I knew more than I knew. I was hyper confident, and one of the things we say about the McDonald clan is confident, but not always correct, and so I think I think that most people aren't always correct, but sometimes we're so confident in the way we say things. People don't leave any room for us to be wrong, and I was certainly that way in my 20s, and I needed to eat some humble pie for a little while to grow me into being an adult.

Mick Spiers: 3:04

Yeah, very good, okay. So I love the self-awareness, I love the journey of discovery of yourself. I'm going to say there, dave, I also like this element you got there around family business. I think that will resonate with a lot of people. What I'm curious to know is why Better Together? Why that business?

Dave MacDonald: 3:22

Okay, so Better Together Group is an amalgamation of three separate employment agencies and it just became cumbersome to talk about revolution staffing and help, unlimited and essential staffing, and so we rebranded them into the Better Together group. We had purchased one of our fiercest competitors, help Unlimited. And when my first day that I met with that group as a team, I was like guys, we're doing this because I believe that we can all be better together, and that just naturally flowed out of my mouth and became the new brand.

Mick Spiers: 4:00

Yeah, really good. Okay, so hiring decisions are really. They can be make or break for many businesses, particularly in small businesses. It probably becomes even more acute. I want to start with one which is about sometimes we see hiring managers in a rush. They've got a vacant position and there's a sense of urgency to fill it, but that sense of urgency might come to the point of rushing a decision that they might regret later. What's your philosophy in terms of speed versus taking the time to get the right fit for the right role?

Dave MacDonald: 4:36

Yeah, I think you can end up in paralysis on both sides of that. Someone much smarter than me said fire fast, hire slow. I'm not good at firing fast, I fire too slow, without a doubt, and I just believe in people. You can't own an employment agency and not believe in people. I really love people and want to help people achieve more than they can even dream of themselves. It's really part of my personal passion is to help people achieve more than they anticipate out of themselves. But then, secondly, when it comes to that hiring thing, there's a balance to like.

Dave MacDonald: 5:15

Some people talk to me about the concept of, you know, grabbing the closest tool instead of the right tool. And so often in hiring decisions, particularly in small, medium-sized businesses, people reach for someone they know, or reach for somebody that they trust, or reach for somebody that's close so that they can fill the gap really quickly, and I think that there's a lot of. There should be pause in that type of mindset, because sometimes, when you need a screwdriver, you end up with a hammer, and putting a screw in the wall with a hammer is never a good idea. Equally, putting a nail in the wall with a screwdriver is not a good idea. And so finding the right tool for the job is super important.

Mick Spiers: 6:05

Yeah, right, tool for the job is super important. Yeah, right, tool for the job. I like what you're saying there about some balance. If you take forever, you might actually be losing good candidates. If you take too long in the process, the candidates get frustrated. But equally, if you rush the decision and I'm going to throw this to you, dave statements will be made that oh, I don't have time. I don't have time and I'm going to say that you don't have time not to do the process well, because you're going to pay for the consequences later. If you make the wrong decision on someone that's not the right tool for the right job and the right fit, you end up paying for the consequences in the long anyway so.

Dave MacDonald: 6:43

Yeah. I don't know what the current stats are, but I've heard it said frequently that the cost of a bad hire is between 50% and 100% of a person's salary, and so you have to be mindful of hiring the right people, and so quick hires often run into the wrong hire.

Dave MacDonald: 7:08

But there's also a spot where you end up and we see this with the clients all the time where they're having a loss of opportunity by not hiring the best available candidate, and so I'm a big proponent for hiring the best available candidate when you need them, as opposed to looking for perfection. My daughter says all the time, perfection paralyzes the process, and so that's you can't look for perfection Dave No one is perfect, no one will be perfect. But then also, by not filling the seat, what is your cost every day by not filling the role? And that's where you have to really make a business decision about what's best for you. If it costs you $100 a day not to fill the seat, you can go a bunch of days. If it costs you $50,000 a day not to fill the seat, you really need to make a decision.

Mick Spiers: 8:06

Yeah, really liking the balance. So the next one I want to go towards and this is going to be at the heart of our conversation today, and it's an age-old dilemma that a lot of people come with and that is employing for skills versus employing for character, and this is what we were talking about before, and even the balance between hard skills versus I don't even like this term, dave, but soft skills.

Mick Spiers: 8:32

It's a well-used term, but here's the hint soft skills are not soft and they're not easy but the difference between human skills and people skills versus the hard skills of doing the job, this is a dilemma that hiring managers face every day. So what is your guidance to break through that?

Dave MacDonald: 8:50

Well, unfortunately, it depends on where you are in the organization, right, and so in certain roles I would suggest that doctors always hire for skill, particularly surgeons, at least my surgeons. If you want really soft skilled surgeons, you can have those, but I want somebody who's good with a knife. But for other roles, the skills can be quickly learned and quickly achieved, and so then you definitely want to hire for character, and I think that as an organization, you should always put character before skills. But knowing how hot to turn up the temperature on the skill set is super important, depending on the role, like I just said about surgeons and secretaries.

Mick Spiers: 9:44

Yeah, really good. I'm going to extrapolate on the bit that you used as doctors, because for a lot of people they might feel a little bit out of reach. But let's be a bit flippant here for a second and go are you going to hire a pilot purely for character? Have you ever flown an Airbus A380 before? No, no, but I've got good character, right. That person's not going to fly a plane, are they right? But I could even break that down to CNC machinists. You're not going to employ a CNC machinist that doesn't know how to run a CNC machine, Right? So so, yeah, Okay, so the skills are important.

Dave MacDonald: 10:19

The skills are important, but not as important as character. In my mind, care you know what are they? Character eats strategy for breakfast, isn't that? Is that Drucker who said that?

Mick Spiers: 10:34

Drucker was a culture eats strategy for breakfast. But culture is built on the characters of the individuals.

Dave MacDonald: 10:40

Culture is character. Like your company, culture needs to be the backbone of your character analysis.

Mick Spiers: 11:20

Yeah, good, all right, so let me put it to you this way then. So for many jobs, the hard skills are going to be table stakes. If they don't have the hard skills, they don't get a ticket to the dance. And then from here we need to talk about and whether they've got the ability to find those skills in, let's say, in times, job where you got some time, where they can learn on the job to get there. Not all jobs fit that situation, but let's say the hard skills are table stakes, and then character is now going to be what sets them apart. How Dave does that sit with you?

Dave MacDonald: 11:52

Yeah, I would totally agree that the hard skills are required for the job, but you have to be realistic about them. Are you ever going to find a candidate that's 10 out of 10 on all of the hard skills, and what ones are you willing to? You know what I? We hire a lot of truck drivers and in Canada what we used to find this is much less the case now. But as you would get close to the summer weekends, hiring criteria would diminish because they needed to get liquor to cottage country and groceries to cottage country and everything to where summer happened in Canada, and so there's different times of the year. I was just talking to a guy who owns a toy company yesterday. He told me that 90% of toy shipments hit the seas in June, july and like that's of the whole manufacturing year. Most of them are shipped in a 60-day window.

Mick Spiers: 12:55

Yeah, right, understood. So, in terms of the seasonality and the urgency there, also not looking for the 10 out of 10. I think that's the key message there Look at the best available candidate for the role and then see who can bridge the gap. I'm going to take a small tangent here, because this is something I've seen in my career a number of times.

Mick Spiers: 13:14

Dave, what impact do you think and I'm talking to everyone in the audience here to listen to this what impact do you think that can have on what candidates you get applying in the first place? Because I've seen with my own eyes, dave people in my own family fit in two categories here. Even in my close circle, I can tell you this that there will be some people that look at a job advert with 10 criteria and if they don't meet all 10, they don't apply and they've just missed a great opportunity. I've got other people in my family that would loosely get close to four or five of the criteria and then back themselves to learn the rest and they'll apply. So does it skew the pool of applicants that you get and how do we fix that?

Dave MacDonald: 14:01

With AI taking such a significant role in creating applications for candidates, I'm not sure how we fix it. We have people every day that are working at a variety and applying for a variety store, selling lotto tickets, applying for Dave as CNC operators, and it's a massive time waster for everyone. I think that I really respect your family members that you know hardly qualify for the four, that they're reaching for something that is better for them. Like I said, I really aspire to help people achieve more than they think they can, and so I'm happy for them to take a step out like that, but they need to be honest about the process and where they're at in the process. They say, hey, you know, I recognize I'm not necessarily the best candidate for this on a paper, but I think when you meet me you'll find my character and my determination to be better is going to make me an amazing candidate for you, and so I'd love to talk. So coming front loading, that is super important in the application process.

Mick Spiers: 15:07

So really, really good. So I like that advice for the people at the overconfident end of the scale Just be honest and authentic in the process. And for the ones that are not applying unless they meet every criteria, push yourself, get out there.

Dave MacDonald: 15:23

Yeah, man Like. The reality is that, and I recognize that for people that and you may not get this from me, but I have insecurity issues of my own, and that's okay. We need to be overcomers in every aspect of our life. Just reach for it and don't again. Perfection paralyzes the pursuit of good things and process, and so you can't paralyze that process by trying to check every box every time.

Mick Spiers: 15:56

Yeah, very good. Okay, all right. Let's pivot back to hiring managers now and let's get to the heart of our conversation, which is hiring for character. What are we looking for here? What does character mean to you, dave McDonald?

Dave MacDonald: 16:08

Sure, well, like I mentioned earlier, I think that character should stem from your company culture, and so our company culture is built around a WTF philosophy, and that might not mean what you think it means, but we, we talk a lot about work hard, tell the truth and finish the job, and so those, those are that our wtf philosophy. So, out of that, the character that I'm looking for in people is intensity, integrity and intentionality.

Mick Spiers: 16:43

Integrity and intentionality, yeah, really good. There's a key, important step here, then, dave, where you're tapping into what is your company's culture first. So it's not just oh, I want to employ someone that's got great values. It's what is our company culture, what are we trying to build here? What does good look like, what does great look like, and then transforming it into what am I now looking for in the candidate?

Dave MacDonald: 17:11

Yeah, One of the things I think about, Mick, is that when you do it based on your own preference of what good character looks like that's a variable between every hiring manager in the building and when you start with your corporate culture, defining the characteristics that you want, then you can get to a more consistent grading on what your characters, what character qualities are important to you as an organization.

Mick Spiers: 17:46

Yeah, really good, and I'm going to put it. I'll just use the two extremes here. I'm going to say that the culture of a Wall Street trading platform and a day trader or a trading company would be very different to a company that's an environmental activist, for example, and what we're looking for is people that are going to match the values and the culture of the group so that when the person arrives, there's not a huge mismatch of he's a square peg in a round hole from a cultural point of view. Is that what I'm hearing?

Dave MacDonald: 18:17

Yeah, I think that that's true, that those two companies, depending on the ownership group like I deal with mostly family-owned businesses, but also with you know just their corporate chosen structure and what the vision of the board is could be the exact same priorities, right? So, like in the environmental active protection group, you're going to want people that have strong character, that are steadfast, that are clear about what they believe and they are really working towards the same goal On Wall Street. You're going to want to have people that are very convicted about right and wrong and that they don't cross that line, and you're going to want to have people that are driven, but you're going to want that in the environmental group as well, you want people that are driven for a task, and so it's different ways of shaving it. It really does depend on the ownership structure and what the ownership group or management board or board of directors want.

Mick Spiers: 19:22

Yeah, really good, and I like yours. The WTF, and yes, it could be very easy for people to jump to a conclusion there, but the work hard, tell the truth, finish the job really powerful, Talk us through the three. I's again. What do these mean to you?

Dave MacDonald: 19:36

Sure. So what I would say is there are variation on the WTF and maybe a little bit more accepted in conference rooms than the WTF would be. But if you, the way I think of it is like a furnace, okay, and intensity is super important. In my business I need people that bring it every day and are really hard chasers. You have to chase the clients to get responses for the candidates. You have to chase the candidates to get the paperwork done right. You have to really be on top of things, and so intensity is really important to us.

Dave MacDonald: 20:11

But intensity is like the fire in the furnace, and fire in a furnace is great and really important, because you're cold if you don't have it right, but fire alone can turn into an awful thing and burn down the whole house, and so you want to be careful about that, that you're not just intense, that you also have this characteristic of being intentional, that you're process driven, that you're checking all the boxes, that you're doing things not just the right way but in the right order, the right way, and so that's super important to us, and I consider the process or that intentionality to be the duct work that runs the heat out to the various parts of the home and gets the right heat in the right room at the right time. Does that make sense to you?

Mick Spiers: 21:01

Yeah, it does, and I can see how the three come together. So the intensity is the fire, but the intentionality is the focus of where you're going to apply that intensity. And then the integrity is does it have the right I'm going to say boundaries of understanding what's?

Dave MacDonald: 21:21

It's the firebox.

Mick Spiers: 21:22

Yeah.

Dave MacDonald: 21:23

It's what contains the fire, so you don't end up with your house burning.

Mick Spiers: 21:28

Burning the house down. Yeah, yeah, nice one. Yeah, I really like the metaphor. Now, how do we bring that to life, either in the pre-screening process or the interview process? How am I testing for these things, Dave?

Dave MacDonald: 21:48

Yeah, you're asking questions that people aren't accustomed to. So, you know, yeah, you can ask like, tell me about a time where you know you were really amped up about something and you just really felt your intensity burning away at you. And people have a story, and they should have a story. People should be able to articulate a time where, you know, in their workplace they had a project that was super important to them and they burned the extra, the extra oil, they stayed late at night, they came in early, they worked through their meals, whatever it was that exemplified their intensity in that moment. They could even talk about, you know, an emotional outburst at work when, where they were

Dave MacDonald: 22:35

But man, I was just so frustrated and I lost it with Dave coworker. Those are all signs of intensity and they're not bad.

Dave MacDonald: 22:40

Yeah simple questions like tell me more about Mick that. That's really interesting to me. Oh, I really liked it. I'd like to know more, I'd like to understand better. often they're interview-prepped to stop after the first question. And you know, in sales they talk often about when you're talking to a client who has acknowledged that they have a problem, you want to get to the source of the direct impact on them, of the pain related to the problem and if you don't make that personal connection, it's really hard to get through. And I think it's the same when you're interviewing people you need to get to how that personally impacted them and why that was so important to them. Does that make sense?

Mick Spiers: 23:25

Yeah, really good. So there's two elements I'm taking away there, dave. First one was the power of scenarios expected the What's storytelling the telling people to share real experiences of where this has happened, so they don't just give you an academic textbook answer of where this has happened. So they don't just give you an academic textbook answer. And then the Dave part is the curiosity to dig in and see the substance behind it. I'll give an example of one that I use, dave. So when I ask tell me about the biggest mistake that you've made in your career, first of all it's a bit of a red flag if they can't think of one, because everyone makes mistakes. And then my follow-on questions are things like it might be about the substance, but then I'll be asking so what did you learn from that and what would you do differently next time? Or how has it shaped the way that you show up today? so I'm not just looking for the storytelling, I'm looking for the substance behind the story yeah, and I would encourage you, mick, even when they give you a good story like that, to say, hey, can you give me another example? Because so often they're interview prepped for a bunch of questions and it's like, oh, that's really interesting, I really appreciate you sharing. That was very vulnerable of you to give me that and I want to appreciate that from the person, because vulnerability is hard to give. It's them actually respecting you in a way that needs to be appreciated, in my opinion. But then when you drill down for a second or a third experience like that, that really helps you. Yeah, that's a good

Mick Spiers: 24:56

one. I like

Mick Spiers: 24:56

that a lot because they might have expected that question. They might have expected the the what's the biggest mistake you've made in your career? Question. So they got a pre-canned answer that they rehearsed. There might be more gold in the second time that

Mick Spiers: 25:07

you

Mick Spiers: 25:08

ask. Give me another example. Yeah, that's really powerful, dave. I like that. All right, that may also be a tip for what I want to ask next. I want to explore a little bit around confirmation bias here, dave, on two elements, in fact probably three. One is where you get this feeling that the applicant they're searching, they're trying to tell you what you want to hear. They're not really answering the question. They're trying to read your body language, they're trying to give you the answer that you want to hear and then on the receiving side, they start hearing what they want to hear. How do we get through to make sure that there's a legitimate, genuine connection here, that we've got authenticity in the process?

Dave MacDonald: 25:53

Wow, this is a uncomfortable, but what I would say is if you don't feel like they're getting it in the question, cut them off. Cut them off early. Don't let that go 15 or 30 seconds. If the question that they're answering isn't the question that you wanted them to answer, pattern, interrupt by breaking in and say I'm sorry, I don't think we're on the right track and I really want to give you every opportunity to be successful, and so let's start that question again. I'll restate it and then I'd like you to tell me what you heard and then give me your answer. Does that make sense?

Mick Spiers: 26:37

Yeah, I like this. I really like this. This is a powerful one. This is a good one for the audience. So the example I'm talking about I see this a lot. I do a lot of interviews, dave, and what I see is applicants go on a fishing exercise, so the interviewer is asked a question and they start word salad, but what they're doing is watching the body language of the interviewer. Ah, okay, here's the gold. When they see the body language shift, or whatever they go, okay, that's it. And then they follow, but they're not giving a genuine answer at this point. They're just telling you what you want to hear. I love that you're interrupting the pattern and, second, I love that you're asking them what's your understanding of what I asked? That's a powerful approach to make sure that there's not a misunderstanding of what the question was, let alone the answer.

Dave MacDonald: 27:29

Do you want to know how I learned that?

Mick Spiers: 27:30

Yeah, please.

Dave MacDonald: 27:32

Fighting with my wife. i.

Dave MacDonald: 27:35

I love

Dave MacDonald: 27:37

I've been married for 34 years I think, I don't know, it'll be 34 years this September and so like I've got a great thing going on. I really do. I love my wife. It's a great thing. She's amazing and patient with me.

Dave MacDonald: 27:50

But one of the things that we learned really early on was it's not just enough, in a discussion or specifically in a disagreement, to state your case. You have to give the other person the opportunity to restate what they heard you say, so that you catch the disparity when you're passionate and they're passionate, when you're nervous and they're nervous. It's equally important in an interview, because you want to give a person permission to say, hey, I'm not sure what happened there, I got that mixed up, and I would encourage you to open your initial interviews with statements like that Like, look, this is a conversation, we're just really here to have a coffee together, virtually. I don't want you to feel super judged. Obviously, I'm evaluating you, you're evaluating me. I don't want to hide from that. But let's feel free to interrupt each other if there's a confusion or if there's something that's just not making sense. So bring the level of camaraderie up and the level of I'm scrutinizing you way down.

Mick Spiers: 29:39

Yeah, yeah, I think it's powerful in both directions. I think it's mutually beneficial. What you're talking about, this interrupt and this confirmation A it'll stop that word salad approach of the person just trying to tell you what you want to hear. And B it'll reduce the risk that the interviewer walks away with a perception of oh, that, dave, he didn't even understand the question. Well, interrupt and say hang on a second and I'm going to put it back onto the interviewees position here as well, dave for them to interrupt and say oh, hang on a second, dave. I'm not sure I quite got the question. Are you asking? Like you can do it too? The interviewer doesn't.

Dave MacDonald: 30:19

Absolutely. It needs to be a two-way street and that needs to be clear in the opening conversation.

Mick Spiers: 30:25

Yeah, really good. Okay, now, how do we then do the post-processing? So you've got your character that you're looking for. You've got your values and your culture that you're looking for, dave, work hard, tell the truth, finish the job intensity, integrity and intentionality. When you've finished the interviews, let's say that you shortlisted five applicants and you're sitting down with the other people in the interview panel. How are you going to grade them? How are you going to pick the one that stood out?

Dave MacDonald: 31:01

Well, I think that's where you have to measure them against the hard skills and you have to have them listed and say, okay, here it's a five out of five or a four out of five, or you got to measure those things and say, I think that overall they're capable of doing the job. And these are the areas where I would be concerned and these were the areas where I'd be really confident. And then, secondly, you need to always be talking about workplace culture and you know, measuring them to your workplace culture and and the characteristics that come out of that. And again, I would like those things are harder to number because it's much more based on your observations and really your gut feel than it is in anything that they say. But I think that you'll find that the more you do it, the more you talk about it. You just give them a rating on culture and character and I think you're good.

Mick Spiers: 31:52

Yeah, brilliant, Dave, all right. Well, thank you so much. I've you're good. Yeah, brilliant, dave, All right. Well, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this.

Mick Spiers: 31:56

I want to summarize a little bit some of the things that we've discussed and then take us to our rapid round. So, yes, okay, hard skills need to be the ticket for the dance. You can't ignore those. You can't employ someone in a highly skilled job if they don't either have the skills or the, or the pathway that will allow them to acquire the skills in a timeframe that suits you and the business. Then, once we get beyond that, we're employing for character.

Mick Spiers: 32:22

So, thinking about the culture of the organization, what does it mean to work here? What is the culture and how does the character that we're looking for in the individual fit into that culture? Dave's, it's about work hard, tell the truth, finish the job. It's about intensity, integrity and intentionality. You need to know what yours are, what are you looking for, and then you can use the interview to draw that out, draw it out through experiences. I get, as Dave said, if someone gives you the first answer, go oh, can you give me another example to make sure it's not just the pre-rehearsed answer and then get curious to unpack what it really means. And that's what's going to enable you to make better hiring decisions. And if you make a good hiring decision, you will never regret it. You don't want the opposite. You don't want the opposite. You don't want the opposite. All right, dave, this has been really interesting.

Dave MacDonald: 33:17

You will have the opposite, and then you have to be prepared to act on it.

Mick Spiers: 33:21

Oh, that's true as well, which is the fire fast If it really doesn't work out, that's okay too.

Dave MacDonald: 33:27

Just own it and admit it.

Mick Spiers: 33:29

Yeah, don't let it dwell. Yeah, very good, all right, thank you so much, dave. I'm going to take us to our rapid round now. These are the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. So what's the one thing you know now, dave McDonald, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Dave MacDonald: 33:44

I'm not all that and a bag of chips, I think you know. Just my overconfidence in my 20s was problematic and I had a chip on my shoulder that I was trying to prove and I think, the more comfortable I became with myself. I'm still very confident, but I'm also a scared little boy inside at times too and I can't. I can't get away from those two things. So I think it's really just about you know being authentically who you are and owning that and not being afraid to talk about it, because actually everyone is a scared little boy or girl inside and we need to help them draw out and be welcome and accepted in the workplace, whomever they are.

Mick Spiers: 34:30

There's so many layers to that answer, david. It's really good. I'm going to let the audience unpack that themselves. If you need to replay that bit, replay it, because that's a lot of people's lived experience. All right, what's your favorite book, Dave?

Dave MacDonald: 34:43

Favorite business book would be probably I'm still I'm a Patrick Lencioni fan. They're short, they're easy to read, they've got enough storyline to them, plus the real business theory that helps me apply it. Um. So that would be ideal team player by Patrick Lencioni.

Mick Spiers: 35:06

All right, very good very good. And what is your favorite quote?

Dave MacDonald: 35:09

Oh, I've got a couple of them. I was actually just shared this quote with someone today, and it comes from the Bible. It comes from Philippians. It says let your reasonableness be known to all men, and for me, I can be a bit of a tyrant at times, and so it's just a good reminder to humble yourself and let your reasonableness be known to all men. I also love Zig Ziglar, and when Zig Ziglar said, if you help enough other people get what they want out of life, you'll have lots for yourself, that's a go-to for me.

Mick Spiers: 35:44

Yeah, very good, okay, and finally, how do people find you, dave? If people are listening to this and they have their own challenges aligned with hiring, with HR, with payroll, with all of the things that Better Together do, how do people find you?

Dave MacDonald: 35:59

Sure, probably the easiest way find find me is dave@bettertogethergroup. com, or our website is bettertogethergroup. com. My daughter and I also have a podcast where we talk about these types of things, and that's actually called wtftalks. work.

Mick Spiers: 36:19

Yeah, brilliant, all right, thank you so much, Dave. I really enjoyed our conversation today. You've given the audience some very actionable things that they can do in their next hiring journey, whether they are the candidate or whether they are the hiring manager. You've given people some good ingredients on how they can make better decisions. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today.

Dave MacDonald: 36:42

Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the time.

Mick Spiers: 36:44

What a powerful and honest conversation with Dave MacDonald. I loved his vulnerability in sharing how his own missteps helped him grow into the leader he is today and his philosophy that we are better together. It isn't just a catchy brand name, it's a leadership mindset. From the importance of hiring for character to the role of humility in personal growth, Dave gave us many lessons to reflect on. He reminded us that confidence without awareness can be dangerous and that the best teams are built on shared values, not just skills. If this episode made you reflect on how you hire, how you lead or how you grow, then share a comment with us, so we'd love to hear from you. And remember that leadership is not about title or position. It's about your ability to inspire people into meaningful action around a worthy cause, bringing the right people together with the right values and a common purpose where you can have a true impact on the world. In the next episode, we're going to be joined by Michael Lopez, who is an expert in transformational change, and he's going to introduce us to some science-backed strategies on how we can impact change in our organizations.

Mick Spiers: 38:02

Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers. com. A huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo, and my amazing wife Sei Spiers. I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project, YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.