251. Mastering the Art of Delegation with Sabina Nawaz

Ever caught yourself micromanaging when deadlines loom, despite your best intentions? You're not alone. In this revealing conversation, former Microsoft executive Sabina Nawaz shares her personal wake-up call – discovering an employee crying after one of her meetings – that transformed her approach to leadership under pressure.

Sabina introduces game-changing concepts like the "delegation dial" that replaces the problematic on/off switch approach to empowerment. Rather than flipping between complete control and total hands-off leadership, she offers a nuanced framework that adapts to both the situation and the individual's capability. This approach transforms how we develop talent while maintaining quality standards.

The conversation explores how power isolates leaders from truth, creating blind spots that undermine effectiveness. Through practical tools like the "shut up muscle" (intentionally not being the first to speak) and the "multiple meanings exercise" (generating several interpretations of a situation before reacting), Sabina provides immediately applicable strategies for breaking free from these leadership traps.

Perhaps most valuable is Sabina's insight that what senior leadership saw as your strengths may be perceived completely differently by those reporting to you. This perception shift after promotion creates unexpected challenges that derail many promising leaders – unless they recognize and adapt to this new reality.

Ready to transform how you show up as a leader? Listen now and discover actionable strategies from Sabina's new book "You're the Boss: How to Become the Manager You Want to Be and Others Need." Your team will thank you.

🌐 Connect with Sabina:
• Website: https://sabinanawaz.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabinanawaz/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sabinacoaching/

📚 You can purchase Sabina's book on Amazon:
• You're the Boss: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1668023180/

Chapters

• 0:28 When Good Leaders Unravel
• 8:50 The Delegation Dial Concept
• 14:54 Developing Your Shut Up Muscle
• 19:35 The Dangers of Promotion
• 25:44 How Power Isolates From Truth
• 33:36 Multiple Meanings: Avoiding Misinterpretation
• 38:39 Key Leadership Takeaways

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

What happens when even the most caring, high performing leaders start to unravel under pressure? Have you ever wondered if your good intentions as a manager might be getting lost in the noise of stress and responsibility? And here's a big one. What kind of leader Do you truly want to be, and what kind of leader does your team need you to be in today's conversation, I'm joined by Sabina Nawaz, former Microsoft executive a lead executive coach, and now the author of a powerful new book, you're the boss. How to become the manager you want to be and others need. Sabina shares her personal story, one where she openly admits as to becoming a lousy manager, and then what she did to turn it around. There are multiple actionable takeaways from today's discussion, including a concept called the delegation dial and the multiple meanings exercised. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Sabina Nawaz. Sabina had a celebrated career at Microsoft, leading executive development programs for Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer, and now is an elite executive coach. She's also a prolific author who has been featured in Harvard Business Review and the Wall Street Journal, and I'm pleased to announce she's releasing an upcoming book called you're the boss, how to become the manager you want to be and others need. I'm really excited about today's discussion. Sabina, so without any further ado, I'd love it if you would say hello to the audience, and I'd love to know a bit about your career in in that interesting career that you've had. But what particularly inspired you to write this book?

Sabina Nawaz: 1:55

Thank you so much for having me. Mick, and hello everyone who's listening. There are a number of paths points along my journey, of course, like anybody else, but I think a pivotal moment for me was realizing that I was a lousy manager at Microsoft, and I hadn't always been that way for most of my management career, the feedback I received was, you're a great boss, because you really care about us. You invest in us, you think about our career, you think about our well being. You give us clear guidance. But as I came back from parental leave after my first child, I was recently promoted into a big job overseeing all of the Executive Leadership, Management Development for the company, and had deliverables all the way to the top of the organization. The pace was relentless. The pressure was intense. And at home, I had an infant that didn't sleep, so with all of that pressure on me and worried that we would look bad to the senior most executives of the company, I would micromanage. I would oversee every single detail. I would get grumpy, snippy, short. I'm five foot three, so I'm short, but short tempered. And the worst part of this was I had no idea that this was impacting other people badly. I thought, we're being productive. We're moving fast. You know, yes, I need to empathize with people more. I need to connect with them more. But that will happen later. Of course, that later never came along. So finally, one day, my colleague told me that somebody was crying in their office as a result of a meeting that we had had that was a shocking wake up call. It made me realize or wonder, how I had become somebody who was hurting other people when my intention, of course, was all great. And how could the same person be a great manager under some circumstances and a terrible one under other circumstances. That's what got me reverse engineering this process and got me curious, and was the seeds of the book. Fast forward a few years as a CEO coach, I interview a lot of people about what they actually think about their bosses, and have collected, over the years, 12,000 pages of data of how people perceive their bosses. So those 12,000 pages of data with the starter of my own experience led me to this book.

Mick Spiers: 4:32

Well, that's wonderful. Sabine, first of all, I love that you're putting yourself in there your own experience, but 12,000 pages of research, that's amazing. There must be a lot of richness in that data. And I would be curious to know as we go along, how many of the stories repeat themselves, and how consistent this story keeps on playing over. And I've got to say, I'm sitting there listening to you and the and the transition. It must be difficult some of those moments. Particularly the wake up call of the employee crying. You got a crying baby at home, and now you've got crying people at work. You must be thinking, Where did I go wrong? Where did I go wrong? I'll share a bit of a reflection of my career. I was a terrible boss to begin with. I was a micro manager. Then when I discovered what I'd done wrong, I discovered empowerment and trust. I then build my whole career around empowerment and trust. But then you have these moments where things don't go to plan, and you think, oh, I should have stepped in more. I should have so the situational and the adaptive leadership can go a little wrong, and you can start reverting back to micromanagement again. I live this as well, so tell me more about what you did differently once you had that, that wake up call of the employee crying after a meeting. What happened next?

Sabina Nawaz: 5:56

Well, starting by apologizing to people and slowing down recognizing that this is what is happening. So now I have a tool for this, not just micromanaging, but us taking on so much on ourselves. Because, you see, it's not power that corrupts us, it's pressure. When we're under pressure, some of our good intentions go by the wayside, and we get short and snippy and act in ways that we won't be proud of. More importantly, it's really harmful to our employees. And then research shows that when employees feel ill treated, they sabotage results. They don't work the way we need them to, which then further increases our pressure and creates this vicious cycle. So for those bosses like myself, who think that we have to be the sole provider. We have to take it all on ourselves and be these straight A students, I arrived at a thought around delegation, which is the number one mistake bosses make in delegation is treating it like an on off switch. Here, I trust you. I empower you. Go do this, give me you know we're going to go talk to the customer on Monday, come back with your stuff on Friday, and when they come back on Friday, it is not what we were expecting, and it is not meeting the bar. So what do we do? We jump in and we micromanage again, which is even more harmful than micromanaging in the first place because we told them we were empowering them, that empowerment is now in the toilet. So the tool that I use is called the delegation dial, instead of a switch. Treat delegation like a dial. You notch it up little at a time based on the knowledge, the skills, the experience the person to whom you're delegating has, if they're a newbie, you do not give them full empowerment. That is not setting them up for success. It's not doing them a favor. You a favor or the work. So instead, you simply do the work and have them watch, and then maybe you tell them. You tell them you're going to paragraph one is going to be about this. Paragraph two here. This is how you're going to end the document and so on. Then you teach them. This is why I've got this. You know, if you're editing in a document, for example, telling them is you're making red lines in the document, teaching them is you're putting comments in there to say, the reason we start this way is this. The reason this comes after that is this and so on. Then you coach them. You ask them questions. What else did you consider? What were the pros and cons? What made you arrive at this particular decision point, and only then do you fully hand it over to them? So if we can notch up the delegation dial, we are going to be a lot more effective at creating a sustained reduction in our pressure and development and growth in our people.

Mick Spiers: 8:48

I love this Sabina, this is our really big takeaway for the audience already, so have a think about this. Delegation is not a switch. Micromanagement is not a switch. You don't just switch from one extreme to another. And in my example that I was giving before I had a project that went really wrong. That was one project out of 100 projects. So why would I then just become a micro manager for 100 projects when it was one that needed more care and attention? So so the situational element there is one project needed help, not 100 projects. And then I'm hearing the adaptive element from you, Sabina, which is you're not going to treat an intern the same way that you're going to treat a 30 year veteran in your industry. So you're going to use that delegation dial for the for the more junior. You are going to start back at one, and you're going to ratchet up slowly. And I love the example that you used of the document. Yeah, this is really powerful.

Sabina Nawaz: 9:46

Well, I do want to add a point you might have to start earlier in the delegation dial with a 30 year veteran of the industry. If the topic is new to them, let's say you're working on an AI project and they haven't worked. Done AI before? Well, you're going to go back to the beginning. So it's not static. It's dynamic depending on the situation.

Mick Spiers: 10:07

Yeah, really good. Okay, so two big takeaways already, power doesn't corrupt, pressure does. So when you get into those precious situations, don't allow yourself to go into habits that you wouldn't be proud of is the is the thing I'm taking away from that, and then we've got this situational and adaptive leadership with a delegation dial how to how do we ramp this up? If someone's listening to the show Sabina, and they're recognizing themselves, just like I did when you were talking, they're recognizing themselves around, oh yeah, I do a bit of that. I flick the switch, etc. How does someone start with a delegation doll?

Sabina Nawaz: 10:48

I think a key is what you're saying, Mick, which is recognizing. Recognition is half the problem, and it's really hard to recognize, because while pressure corrupts not power, power then tends to insulate and isolate you from the truth. So just like I had no clue that things had gone off the rails, you won't know that you're micromanaging or you're not delegating appropriately, you're sucking up all the responsibility to yourself. So first thing to recognize is, Do other people offer up ideas? Does anybody disagree with what I say? And if the answer is no, then you're likely in this micromanaging or sole provider terrain, and it's time to pause. Then before you even think about delegation, you need to assess where the employee is. Are they, you know, to use someone else's framework, are they unconsciously incompetent? Are they consciously incompetent? Are they consciously competent or unconsciously competent? So based on where they are in their level of competence and knowledge, you make a choice point of which part of the delegation. Dial, do teach? Do tell, teach, coach and safety net. Do you start with, and then you start with this, a conversation with the employee.

Mick Spiers: 12:09

They're really good. So I'm hearing two key points there. One is around the self awareness and testing. And I like your idea there do a little test around psychological safety and and if people are not speaking up, it's not because it's there's nothing wrong. It's never if they're not speaking up, it's because they don't feel that they can, that they feel that their fear of speaking up is is greater than their perceived benefit of doing so. So you've gone wrong somewhere along the line. Let's double and then, then there were the second part, sorry. Was then about reading the situation of, where is the person that in their in their learning cycle? What I want to know, though, if you, let's take a step back and go, if you've done that test, that psychological safety test of, oh, wow, my team aren't telling me and not speaking up. They're not giving me ideas anymore. They're just saying, yes sir, no sir. Kind of thing. How do we fix that if we've already done some damage?

Sabina Nawaz: 13:14

By not talking and what I mean by that is exercising your Shut up muscle, which is a series of steps very practical tactics that don't take any extra time, but will create some discomfort in them and in you, but it it starts to develop their capabilities and their ability to participate and not just divert all of that attention and pressure to you. So here are a few ways you can take steps towards deploying your Shut up muscle. First of all, if you're the first one out the gate to speak, could you at least be the third person to speak, so that others have space. And you might want to be transparent about it. You might say, look, I noticed that I'm always the first to speak, and I'm I know there's a lot of wisdom in this room. I'm not going to do that going forward, and if I do, you can hold me accountable. I'm going to be at least the third person to speak. So people don't think, oh my gosh, what's going on? So that's one piece. Another is you could take notes and capture all of those ideas that you're buzzing with so that you're not worried about losing them, and then only speak up and share the ideas that others haven't already shared, maybe towards the end of the meeting.

Mick Spiers: 14:35

Yeah, I'm so happy with this Sabina, I was doing a little dance as you were talking there, that would that was a powerful message. So the two things that I loved, one was that you're going to have an open and transparent dialog with the team about it. If you, if you've noticed, talk about it. Talk about it openly, and go, Well, look, I feel like I've created an environment here where, where you you're not feeling comfortable. People to speak up. So I'm going to make some changes here. I'm going to be the third one to speak, or, as you know, the African proverb talks about being the last person to speak. And then by leaving that vacuum, people will step in. It will be uncomfortable, like you said, Sabina, for a little while. If they're not used to it, everyone's going to kind of look sideways at each other first, but then after a while, people will go, Well, okay, no, it is safe to speak up, and I'm going to share my so the power of the Shut up muscle, that's my next takeaway today. But then it was also the Open dialog with the team to talk about it. If it's a problem, talk about it. If you talk about it, people relax, actually, because they're probably all aware of it. Just no one's talking about it. Really powerful. All right, when you and I were having a chat before we came on and hit record, you spoke about being promoted being the most dangerous time in your career. Tell us about that.

Sabina Nawaz: 15:57

Often when we're promoted, of course, it's a wonderful time in a career too, who doesn't want a promotion or a raise, and all the perks that go with it. But when we're celebrating, we forget that there's a risk lurking in the shadows, and the risk is that the higher we go, the very strengths that have propelled us there are going to be viewed completely differently, almost 180 degree opposite, by the people who are working for us. When necks are craning up, the view is a lot less charitable, and the impact is hard. So you know, we had talked about micromanaging earlier. Mick, and imagine somebody who's very strong at the details. They're of course, going to show up as a micromanager. That's how they're going to be viewed. Or what if you're really strategic, are you now going to be seen as manipulative? Say you're calm under pressure, and now people are going this person's really aloof and disinterested in what we're doing. So that there are two sides to the same coin, viewed very, very differently. And again, because power hides this from us, we don't realize that our strengths, I'm still the same person, but we don't realize that the circumstances have changed and they're being viewed radically differently.

Mick Spiers: 17:20

Oh yeah, this is a really good one. So what got you here may be the very thing that holds you back in your new role. So you need to make these pivots, but it's also the perception this, the spotlight element that people are looking now they're watching. And some of those things that were strengths may come up as perceived issues right now, the detailed person becoming the micro manager, absolutely, the person that's very much about empowerment and trust may be coming across as abdication, and the boss doesn't even care anymore. Exactly. Really good. Okay, so, same thing if you find yourself in this situation. Sabina, what? What next? So, so if someone's listening to the show on their way to work, and they're going, Yeah, that's me, how does someone address this situation?

Sabina Nawaz: 18:11

Yeah, it's tough, because, of course, you don't know, and nobody's going to tell you. And so think about on the eve of your promotion, what are your signature strengths? What is the thing that's your secret sauce? What makes you so special and so shiny? Now try and Channel Five different people who are in positions that are very different from you, so not different people with personalities or your friends, but people in different positions. So if you're managing a team, what does somebody one level below or two levels below you on the organizational chart? How might they see that detail, orientation? What about your peers? What would they say? Are you being persnickety and resistant to change because you're hanging on to the details and asking all those questions, what about your boss in this elevated role? Are they going to think that you have not been able to scale up? So you can ask yourself, how those strengths are being seen from a variety of different perspectives and roles, and if you're honest with yourself, you'll realize, ah, this very same trait, even though I'm not changing it, is showing up differently. So now you can adjust your communication. This happened to somebody I coach who is very, very much into the details, but was made in charge of a $14 billion business as a CFO. So when he came on board, he told his team, he said, the way I learn is through details and asking all the detailed questions. I am not interested in micromanaging you. I have too much on my plate, but you will hear me ask these detailed questions for the first three months. So. After the first three months, you should not answer detailed questions, because I should be on boarded and have enough information at that point, you let me know at what altitude you want me to play if you want me to problem solve with you, of course, I'll ask you detailed questions, but most of the time, that's not my interest.

Mick Spiers: 20:22

There's something a few powerful things in there. Sabina, the first one is the open and transparent conversation. Again, if you recognize this stuff, and I'll come back to the process that you used in a moment, if you've recognized it, have that open and transparent conversation with the team. I'm going to also go to another example like this, about having those conversations. So this one comes from my career as well, because I am more one that's about empowerment and trust, and if anything, I probably use more of a coaching style in my leadership. So if someone comes to me with a problem, I usually coach them through it by a bunch of questions. So if they come to me with a question, I'll answer it with seven questions. And mostly that works like in nine times out of 10. That works because I'm leading them to find their own answer, and when they find their own answer, they'll it'll live with them forever.

Sabina Nawaz: 21:18

That's brilliant. Mick, Yes.

Mick Spiers: 21:19

But one time out of 10. It frustrates the hell out of them, because they go I went to Mick and I just wanted an answer, and he wouldn't. He gave me seven questions. So I empower my team to say, Hey, this is my style. This is what I do. I'm a coaching style leader. I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. If there's a moment where you just want me to decide, should this be red or should this be blue? Just tell me, and I'll make the decision. So to make sure I don't come across as indecisive, because all I do is ask questions. I empower the people. Hey, if you need an answer, just just tell me. How does that sit with you?

Sabina Nawaz: 21:55

That I love the bi directional nature of that Mick, where you're not only being transparent about what your style is and how to work with it, but you're also allowing for that may not be that 10th person style, and if it's not, you're giving them the leeway, the autonomy to come back to you and push back and ask for that answer. So I love the fact that you're inclusive in your approach, because different people are going to have different styles, and not everybody has just kowtow to the boss's style.

Mick Spiers: 22:27

Yeah, exactly. All right. So different styles, different people will warm to one style or another style, and then also the situation might just call, Hey, we just need to get on with it. To come back to the process that you spoke about, I thought it was really powerful. I'm going to add something, if I can spare you. So you spoke about, almost documenting your superpower, what makes you special, and then having that empathy circle of of how are other people going to interpret that special source? I would add in there anything that you're aware of that's a bit of a shortcoming. And we're all human. None of us are perfect. I'd say the same with that. Like if you, if you add both your strengths and your weaknesses, and then did that empathy view that you did, where? How will my boss perceive this strength? How will my boss perceive this weakness? How will my team perceive this strength? How will my team perceive this weakness? How will my peers perceive this strength? Perceive this weakness? I think you can then end up with something where you can adapt and adjust as needed to make sure that your superpowers are being applied where needed and where there is a weakness that you're accommodating that weakness with the others around you. How does that sit with you?

Sabina Nawaz: 23:45

Very much so, and sometimes surprisingly, when you do that with weaknesses, you might realize no one cares. You don't really need to work on improving your PowerPoint graphic design skills. You can get someone else to do that for you or with you. So it's a really great exercise, as you're describing it, Mick, and also helping you let go of certain things that you are beating yourself up about and you don't need to.

Mick Spiers: 24:14

I love this, and I'll give you a silly example here. The very things that you're not good at is going to be some not only someone else's strengths, but it's going to be the thing that they love. I'll give you a silly example here. Let's say that you hate pivot tables. Let's say you hate pivot tables. You're not good at it. You don't enjoy it. There's going to be someone in your near vicinity that not only is good at pivot tables, they love to it. They're going to be up. You know, they're singing along, going, Oh, I love doing have a look around you. Don't worry about your weaknesses. Have a look around you. There's going to be someone for the thing that you hate. There's going to be someone that it's their favorite thing to do, and they're good at it. Yeah.

Sabina Nawaz: 24:58

Yeah. I did that with a. Team that I joined. There were four people on this team, and we just simply went around and said, What's What's one thing that you really love about your job in terms of the things you're working on, and what's one thing that you're working on that just does not energize you? And exactly that happened, it was like magic Mick, even in a small team, where we were able to then trade the things that people didn't like and the other person received with gratitude and joy. So now we just multiplied the joy in the team simply by having a conversation of the assets, sort of tallying the assets of what people are working on, what they like doing and what they don't like doing.

Mick Spiers: 25:40

Yeah,Nbrilliant. Okay, that's another great takeaway for the audience today. There's some really good, actionable things here. The final chapter that I want to unpack you and I discussed before we hit record, that power isolates you from the truth. Tell us more about that, Sabina,.

Sabina Nawaz: 25:57

Well, some of it is, is inevitable because the person in position of power has a lot of control over your destiny, whether or not you have a job, how much of a bonus you get, what projects you work on, where you sit, so many decisions that will impact you in minor and major ways. So are you going to be as honest as critical of that person who has your fate in their hands. So that's one part of it. The other part is that often when you've gotten to a position of power, you haven't gotten there by being wrong all the time. You've gotten there by being right most of the time. So you come in with your right or your righteous view, and it becomes the view. And you assume, like you said before, that silence equals agreement, compliance. You don't know that that's actually there, thinking, Oh, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. And so you continue forward, and then you get more and more isolated in your own viewpoint. It becomes an echo chamber, as opposed to pressure testing these ideas and coming up with the best idea.

Mick Spiers: 27:07

Yeah, there's a big element there of just confirmation bias, that you start believing your own truth, yes, yes, without actually testing it. And if no one's challenging you on it, because you haven't created that psychological safety, you'll just continue to think, Well, I'm the smartest person in the room, and the more that you think you're the smartest person in the room, the more you're alienating everyone else, exactly. Oh yeah, okay, this is really powerful. So what are the tips here? So if you've found yourself in this trap where you do find yourself thinking that you're always right and no one's challenging me, and you're sitting there going, but I am the smartest person in the room, which is a problem, by the way. What do we do from here? Sabina, how do we break that one?

Sabina Nawaz: 27:55

I use a tool called multiple meanings, which are actually designed for my kids, but it works equally well in corporations, which is making at least three, if not more, different interpretations about what's going on before acting. I had a client who was really upset one day coming into our coaching session saying that his colleague is planning to present to the leadership team in a month on a particular topic, and the client said, That's my area. Why is he presenting on that? I'm really mad at him. I'm gonna go read him the riot act and tell him to back off from my turf. And I said, yeah, maybe he is out for a power grab, and you're in trouble. He's got you in his sights. That might be true, but Can we pause for a moment and make three other interpretations about what might be going on? And he was very reluctant at first, because he had a full head of steam about how this guy was a complete megalomaniac, but as he started thinking about it, he said, Well, this is the newest area in my organization, and maybe he doesn't know that this is in my area. Okay, great. What else could be going on? And he said, Well, maybe he actually wants to collaborate with me. And so he's bringing up this topic because he has some extra resources with which to help me out and for us to produce something, taking his strengths, our strengths and combining our resources. Great. What's a third interpretation? Well, this guy's kind of interpersonally awkward. He does not do well in one on one conversations, so maybe he meant to have a one on one conversation with me, but hasn't been able to get around to it. Of course, as he started making these multiple interpretations, his temperature started going down, he realized he didn't really know what was going on and that his extreme view. Was likely not the truth, or at least not the full truth. He went and talked to the person. Turned out the person wasn't aware this was in his area and would be very open to collaborating. And in a month, they co presented to the leadership team the project, and they collaborated in delivering that project with great results, but that wouldn't have happened if he'd gone in attacking this guy.

Mick Spiers: 30:26

I'm going to say there might have even been a fourth and a fifth interpretation. Absolutely, person might not have known that this was your baby and the thing that you care about most in the world, and they've got no idea that they're stepping on your toes, etc. Exactly. I love this Sabina, the multiple meanings exercise. I love that you did it with your kids as well. That's That's awesome. But absolutely, this can play out in the workplace, and I'm going to say both cognitively and emotionally, so in terms of looking at different perspectives of reality from a cognitive basis and then the emotional basis. And what I'm going to say like listening to you if you find yourself falling into this trap in the workplace, no one really turns up to the workplace every day going, What can I do today to be a real jerk? No, no one does that. Usually people have got very good intentions. There are some narcissist out there, but they're a minority. Most people turn up with very good intentions. If you find yourself in a situation, whether it's with a customer, a peer or a boss, and you find yourself in your head saying the following thing, oh, you only did that because and you're making an assumption on someone else's intentions, you're already in a trap, and you you can use this multiple meanings exercise of Sabina to get you out of that trap. If you've come to a conclusion that the person did this because and you've come up with some evil intent, take a breath and go, What? What's another interpretation of what they just did. And I can tell you, Sabina that I didn't have a name for it, but I've done this throughout my career, and usually when you come up with the most innocent interpretation of events, is usually the most accurate?

Sabina Nawaz: 32:17

Right. Exactly, because most people are not out to get you.

Mick Spiers: 32:21

No.

Sabina Nawaz: 32:23

In fact, the opposite.

Mick Spiers: 32:25

Yeah, exactly. So honestly, the most innocent explanation and the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate one. All right, this has been really powerful. Sabina, I want to play back some of the things for the audience, some big takeaways for from today, and then we'll go to our Rapid Round, our final four questions. So first of all, congratulations on the upcoming book. You're the boss. How to become the boss you want to be and others need. I love this concept that power doesn't corrupt, the pressure does. So if you find yourself in these situations where the pressure is mounted and you start reverting to habits that don't serve you well, you need to take that step back and go, hang on a sec. Is this working? Is this what the situation requires? Is this what the person or people need? And the delegation dial was a perfect illustration of that. Where on the delegation dial do I need to be right now? What does the situation call for, and what does the person that I'm leading need right now? What's going to serve them well? And is it a dial starting to one, then to two, then to three? It's not even static at any moment in time. We spoke about that what serves you, what has served you well, to get you to hear may be the very things that hold you back going forward. And I thought this empathy circle of where you're you're looking at, well, what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? But how is it impacting those around me, and how will they perceived the very same strengths and weaknesses I thought was really, really powerful, and then that power isolates you from the truth. If people are not telling you things, it's not because everything's perfect and you're the smartest person in the world. That's not at all. You need to break that and the being the last person to speak, or the third person to speak. Having that those conversations with your team is really powerful. And then the final one is the multiple meanings exercise, if something's happening and you're starting to see red mist around some other individual, take this multiple meanings exercise from Sabina, and think about, is there a simpler and more innocent explanation of what just happened compared to the one that you've just dreamt up in your head? These are very powerful tools. Sabina, and thank you so much for sharing these with us.

Sabina Nawaz: 34:54

Thank you, Mick, thank you for that excellent summary.

Mick Spiers: 34:58

Oh, okay, I'm going. Take us now to our four questions that we ask all of our guests. Sabina, so, so what's the one thing that you know now? Sabina noaz, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Sabina Nawaz: 35:10

Oh, there are so many things we could be talking for an hour, but if I were to boil it down to one, it would be do less that you don't have to be busy all the time. You don't have to be doing all the time. Take the time to be radically present and be as opposed to do. You'll get great insights. You'll build better relationships, and it's also wonderful for your own mental health and well being.

Mick Spiers: 35:37

Wonderful. So do less be not to I really love this, and there's so many things that happen with that. Sabina, a, your focus will be improved. The things that you focus on and prioritize will be improved. But when you do less, it creates, it creates the space for others to learn and grow.

Sabina Nawaz: 35:59

It sure done.

Mick Spiers: 36:01

They step into the bridge? Really good. Okay, so as an author yourself, what is your favorite book?

Sabina Nawaz: 36:06

Well, I am not monogamous to any one book or author. My favorite book changes depending on what I'm reading recently, and the one I've read right now that I've really appreciated is called martyr by COVID Akbar.

Mick Spiers: 36:21

Okay, I don't know much about it. Tell tell us the synopsis.

Sabina Nawaz: 36:25

I would be giving away too much. It is, it is a book that is very complex in a number of ways, and it's, I think the author brings in some of his own story in there. He's interwoven it with some poetry that he's written, but it's a deep examination of life through a fiction book, and the story takes many twists and turns that I'm not going to create a spoiler for, but it is highly worth your time to read it.

Mick Spiers: 36:52

All right, wonderful. What's your favorite quote?

Sabina Nawaz: 36:55

I don't know how to pronounce his name, but this is the author of The Little Prince, and the quote goes along the lines of perfection is not when you have more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.

Mick Spiers: 37:08

Oh, yeah. Okay, that one hit home nicely. Yeah. I like that a lot. All right. Finally. Sabina, first of all, you got your your new book coming out. There's going to be people that have listened to this, and it's resonated with them strongly. How do people find you? If they'd like to know more, they'd like to get a copy of the book.

Sabina Nawaz: 37:28

The book is sold everywhere. Books are found, and they can follow me on LinkedIn or Instagram and so on, but also perhaps the best way where they can also get additional resources and tools is on my website. sabinanawaz.com,

Mick Spiers: 37:46

All right, brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today and for your the gift of your wisdom and experience. Mostly, I want to say thank you for the really actionable insights. Like it was a great conversation, but it was so many things that people listening to the show right now can apply immediately in their leadership practice. Thank you so much.

Sabina Nawaz: 38:08

Thank you so much.

Mick Spiers: 38:10

So how do you show up when the pressure is on, and how aware are you really of the impact you're having on the people around you? A huge thank you to Sabina Nawaz for joining us today and for her openness, her honesty and her insight, I hope her story inspired you as much as it inspired me. Remember, Leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about being aware of the impact you having on others around you. There are so many great takeaways for me today. This power doesn't corrupt pressure does the delegation? Dial the empathy circle. Power isolates you from the truth and this multiple meanings exercise, there are lots of actionable insights for you today. In the next episode, I'll be sharing my reflections on this conversation with Sabina and adding my own thoughts about some of the mistakes I've made as a leader over my career and what I did to course correct. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do, take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.