247. The Bravery Path: Choosing Growth Over Comfort with Jill Schulman

Have you ever noticed that your proudest moments usually follow your hardest challenges? There's a reason for that. In this eye-opening conversation with Jill Schumann, former Marine Corps officer and leadership expert, we unpack the counterintuitive science showing how discomfort—not comfort—leads to our greatest happiness and fulfillment.

Jill demolishes the myth that bravery means fearlessness. Instead, she redefines it as "taking action in the presence of fear for something meaningful to you." This subtle but powerful shift changes everything. Drawing from her military background and master's in applied positive psychology, Jill reveals why our modern obsession with comfort actually diminishes our capacity to live fully.

The conversation takes surprising turns as we explore practical strategies you can implement immediately. Learn why "flipping the risk" (focusing on what you'll lose by not acting rather than what might go wrong if you do) can transform decision-making. Discover the power of building a progressive "ladder" of challenges that stretch you just beyond your comfort zone. And find out why having a "brave tribe" of supporters who themselves make you slightly uncomfortable might be your secret weapon for growth.

Perhaps most powerfully, Jill shares why viewing obstacles as opportunities rather than barriers can completely shift your life trajectory. "The obstacle is the way" isn't just ancient Stoic philosophy—it's supported by cutting-edge research showing how our character and capabilities develop precisely through difficulty, not despite it.

Whether you're facing a major life decision or simply wanting to live with more courage in everyday moments, this conversation offers both the science and practical tools to help you take that brave next step. Because as Jill reminds us, quoting Epictetus: "How long are you going to wait before you demand the best of yourself?"

🌐 Connect with Jill:
• Website: https://www.jillschulman.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillaschulman/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jillschulman/

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• 15:30 (Cont.) 247. The Bravery Path: Choosing Growth Over Comfort with Jill Schulman

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:00

What if I told you that bravery isn't about being fearless, but about taking action despite fear. What if courage wasn't something you're born with, but something you could build and what if the key to unlocking your full potential wasn't about avoiding discomfort but embracing it? My guest today is someone who has lived, studied and taught the science of courage, Jill Schulman, a former Marine, a leadership expert and a keynote speaker with a master's in applied positive psychology. She helps individuals and organizations cultivate bravery, not just in the battlefield, but in boardrooms, careers and everyday life today, we'll uncover what it really means to be brave, how you can train yourself to push through fear and practical strategies to become the best version of yourself. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Jill Schulman. Jill, is a former US Marine Corps officer, a leadership expert and keynote speaker, and she's got a master's in applied positive psychology, but what she helps organizations and individuals with is the science of bravery, and she's also the author of an upcoming book about the science of brewery. So you've probably guessed already what our topic is going to be. We're going to unpack what it means to be brave and what it means to unpack bravery so that you can become the best version of yourself. So Jill, without any further ado, I'd love to hear your back story, what inspired you to do this work around the science of bravery?

Jill Schulman: 1:45

You know, I think it really came to me when I started studying the science of happiness and well being, which is positive psychology. And I feel like our world is focusing on comfort and making life better, to be happier and have better well being, that is what I feel like I hear in media. That's what I hear from my kids, is they're watching social media. So when I was studying positive psychology, I was really, really curious when I saw some of the Reach research on what really can elevate well being is when we get uncomfortable, when we do things that are outside of our comfort zone, and how those are the things that can lead to some of the highest levels of happiness and well being. So, you know, in the science of positive psychology, there's many things that contribute to well being, but when I stumbled upon that little like nugget. I was just fascinated, and I took a deep dive and did my research as part of my capstone on that angle of how being brave, which is to take action in the presence of fear or discomfort. And how many people think, Whoa, whoa, to be happy like I shouldn't be uncomfortable. I shouldn't do things that scare me. I should just stay in the comfort zone. And actually, the opposite is true. So that's how I got started on this whole journey of studying, speaking and writing on bravery.

Mick Spiers: 3:14

It does sound a little bit counter intuitive. You think about the word comfort, and you your picture, I don't know, sitting on your lounge with a nice comforter over you and watching your favorite television show, but that's that's not what really brings us fulfillment. So let's get into some definitions. I think you've already touched it in your introduction, but let's go a bit deeper. When you say bravery. Jill Schulman, what does bravery mean to you?

Jill Schulman: 3:39

So bravery is not eliminating fear. It's not becoming fearless. And that's a mistake. Sometimes people think that's a definition bravery. Instead, Bravery is when you choose to take action in the presence of fear or discomfort for something that is meaningful to you or aligns with your values. So it's taking those courageous actions in the presence of fear. So that is how I define bravery.

Mick Spiers: 4:11

We do have this label of someone that's fearless, and we and we point to them sometimes, oh, what a fearless leader, or what a fearless and end that with your own noun, that this is something that we say we don't know what's going on inside that person. And they're not acting without fear. They're acting despite fear. Exactly, exactly. How do we redefine our definition of fear? Like fear has a negative connotation, but what does fear mean, Jill?

Jill Schulman: 4:42

Well, I'm talking about the fear that is holding us back from doing what we know is the right thing, or the fear that's holding us back from achieving what is meaningful to us. Now, fear many times, if we just look at the. Evolution of humans is a very good thing. To be fearful and to run away from danger is part of what makes us survive. So there are certain factors of when something scares you and there's danger, we should avoid those things, but I'm talking more about the internal fear. What are the things that we're scared of doing that are holding us back from really getting what we want. So there's a spectrum of fears out there, and, you know, being afraid of things and avoiding things that will genuinely be dangerous in our lives, that's a good thing, but I'm talking about, you know, those things that scare you in that good way, where you like, Oh, I'm scared to do that. I don't that is the fear that we talk about overcoming in the program that I teach to organizations.

Mick Spiers: 5:45

There's two things that are ringing in my head when I hear you say that, and the first one is about reframing fear. What is this fear trying to tell me? Fear is an emotion, just like any other emotion, an emotion is information that's trying to draw our attention to something that we should pay attention to. That's the first one. So could this fear just be telling me, hey, you really this really matters to you. Jill, like your keynote speaker, there's a lot of people that one of their greatest fears is public speaking. But is that fear going to stop them from getting on stage, or is that fear just trying to tell them, hey, this this matters. This matters. That's the first one, and the second one is about our primal nature. Is our primal nature working against us here? So our number one need, whether you go with Maslow or you go with William Glasser, no matter which psychological science you follow around, fundamental human needs, survival is always the number one. We don't have any saber tooth tigers at the at the edge of the cave anymore, Jill, but fear and fight, flight or freeze is still our dominant emotion. It's the number one. Our brain is designed to keep us alive, nothing else. So if we get into that situation where we do have a survival instinct, is fear going to take over and get us to freeze?

Jill Schulman: 7:14

Well, I want to add on to that, because if any of your listeners are feeling like, that's me, sometimes I

Mick Spiers: 7:20

I'm going to say that these three powerful things have a fear and I don't act, and that is the way that our brains are sometimes wired. We are more motivated to avoid risk than to go toward things that have a gain, and we know that from Daniel Kahneman research. But in order to overcome that, I was just having a conversation with Dr. Cynthia Puri. She's from Clemson. She's one of the leading thought leaders, researchers on bravery. And what she was telling me, and some research that she's currently doing that's not quite published yet, it's coming out soon, is that one of the ways that you can overcome that fear is to flip the risk of the fear. So stay with me for a moment. So sometimes we think of the risk of maybe getting on stage, because what if I fumble, what if I don't say the right things? What if I look like an idiot, and that fear holds us back from getting up on that stage. So the strategy is to flip that risk and say, what would be the risk? Or what would I not gain if I didn't get up on stage? So you're trying to think of not the risk of doing, but what is the risk of not doing and trying to amplify that, like maybe I will not get that promotion that I wanted for so long. Maybe I have a really important message that I want to bring to my community or my school, or there's a lesson that I learned that I want to share and I care deeply about that, what if I didn't get that important message out? So it's really amplifying the pain of regret, like, what would happen if I didn't do that? A really classic example I can use is sometimes people's fear of flying. So this is a an example that is just so classic. Let's say you have someone who is has a fear of flying, but their children live 3000 miles away, so they have that fear of flying, but if they have the desire to see their children and potentially their grandchildren, and the the fear or the risk, all the negative things that can happen if they don't see their kids or their grandkids, if they amplify that, that can motivate them to take action in the presence of fear. So that's one of those practical strategies, you know. And as you said too, like, what is the fear telling you? Sometimes fear is telling you danger go away. Other times, this fear is saying, Wow, this is really important. And you know, some of our ancient philosophers, you know, even say that the obstacle is the way, like that thing that is really hard is a thing that we should be moving towards. So really, what is that fear really telling us, and what is. The impact if I don't take action in the presence of the fear, what would be the consequence if I did nothing? And are you going to be able to live with yourself? Or what is your future self to I'm giving two strategies here. One is flip, you know, flip the risk, or the danger, the danger of not doing the second is what they call mental time travel. What is your future self going to say? What advice is your future self going to tell you about the action you should take in this moment? If you do those two things, it's a pretty powerful motivator to take action forward. there. Jill, the obstacle is the way. I'll come back to that one a little bit later as well. I love this reframing of loss. This is really interesting for me. So yes, we have these fears. They can be survival driven, but it's also very true. Listen to what Jill is saying, that people fear loss at a much greater degree than they appreciate gain. The factor can be anything between five to 10 to one. So imagine this, if you lose $100 if you lose $100 note on the street, you need to win $1,000 at the casino for it to feel as good as losing $100 feels bad. So we fear loss more than we appreciate gain. Then think about what Jill is saying, What are you losing by not acting? Instead of the fear of the loss of what could happen, the catastrophization that we have in our head, that I get on that stage and I make a fool of myself, that's the fear my loss of identity because I made a fool of myself. The probability of that happening is actually really low, Jill, and we catastrophize that, but what am I losing by not getting on that stage? That's the powerful reframing here. And then to picture your future self, I sometimes tell this story on the show Jill, people watch movies like Back to the Future and like time travel movies, and it's always like, set back in 1985 and some micro action happened in 1985 that if that, if that action didn't happen, your present would be impacted. But do people think about, what could I do today? What small action could I do today that changes my life 30 years from now into the future. So we once again, we're fearing the change. We're not appreciating the the gain. So two really powerful frames here, reframing the loss and then thinking about, if you don't take the action, what are you going to regret later? How does that sit with you?

Jill Schulman: 12:40

No, it's it's resonating and as you were talking about, there's sometimes those big decisions, those big moments where you can choose to act or not act, yes, and what downstream impact or future impact is that going to have? So think about that. But you also made me think of bravery as not just acting in those really big moments. It's about those little, tiny moments each day, like the consistency of action, right? So are we going to choose to do the maybe uncomfortable thing each day that is the most meaningful action we can take to advance our most important goals? So I feel like bravery is the big moments, you know, that really matter, but it's also all the little small moment, moments that add up over time we are what we consistently do, right? So big moments, little tiny decisions, day in and day out and everything in between.

Mick Spiers: 13:36

I really like this, and I want to go with that and build back towards some of our comfort zone elements. Let's keep on going with this public speaking one, because you are a keynote speaker and and public speaking is a very common fear for people. So think about those micro moments that you're talking about, and we think about comfort zone and getting just beyond your comfort zone. If you do have a fear of public speaking. You're not exactly going to go to from zero to booking yourself onto a 5000 person conference where you're the keynote speaker. So what I'm thinking here listening to you, Jill, is, if you want to build this into your life, it's if it's important to you, moving just beyond your comfort zone is not going from zero to a 5000 person amphitheater. It's going from zero people to a one on one conversation, to a one on three conversation to a one on seven conversation. And these are going to compound, and you're going to be stretching yourself each time. How does that sit with you?

Speaker: 15:22

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Jill Schulman: 15:56

You absolutely nailed it. Sometimes I use the analogy of a ladder, like if you envision what you really want, let's say, speaking, in front of 5000 people, and that's the top of your ladder. Your chances of successfully just reaching, for grabbing and getting to the top of the ladder in one fill swoop is not very likely. So this, what I say, matches what you're saying is you've got to think about, what are all those steps or rings you can put in the ladder that are going to increase the chances of your success. So we need to come up with, what is that plan that is just getting you out of your comfort zone and allows you to make some progress, where you can praise that progress, and then you can build on it from there. So there's a couple of two things that I want to bring up here that are tangible, like takeaways for your audiences as you develop the steps in your ladder to get to your final goal, make sure that they're challenging but achievable, and things that you'll celebrate as you get each to each ring of the ladder, because that's really important. Sometimes people look at the gap instead of the gain. They're going to look at like, I'm not the best speaker speaking in front of 5000 people, and I'm just not good at this. Instead, we want to really celebrate our progress, celebrate our success as we get to each of those rings, and really look at how far we've come. So don't just look at the gap from where we want to go, but look at the gain of how much we've done from when we've started. So that is one thing I want to emphasize, and then the other really important thing, and this is coming coming from someone who has studied and is considered an expert in positive psychology, so this might surprise you, coming from someone with my background, is that when you're planning those steps on your ladder, those different rings to get to that final destination at the top, one of the strategies that will ensure that you're successful in getting up the ladder is to anticipate obstacles, anticipate adversity. So imagine what may go wrong and what you'll do when adversity strikes. And this comes from Gabrielle utens and her research. She's very famous for her model called whoop and it's, you know, your wish, the outcomes, the obstacles. But what she proved very clearly in her research is that when you're making these brave goals, you've got to imagine what might be the internal obstacles or external obstacles that may get in the way. So anticipating them and then developing contingency plans helps make sure that you're more resilient as you're going up the ladder. And the reason why this is so important is if you don't do that, you just think that walking up the ladder is going to be a little tea party, and it's going to be butterflies and rainbows and easy, and the first time you run into any type of adversity, then the sky is falling and it's not working and you may quit, but this strategy of anticipating adversity helps you be prepared for it, so when it happens, I was ready for it, and I've got some contingency plans I'm ready to put in place.

Mick Spiers: 19:13

Yeah, really good, Jill. So some powerful things here. I love the latter metaphor. It's really good. What's going to be the first step, and make sure that that first step is outside your comfort zone. If you don't step out of your comfort zone, nothing's going to change. But make sure that first step is just outside your comfort zone. I like what you said about celebrating the success along the way. We forget to do that. We so forget to do that, and to look how far we've come. We get frustrated with how far we haven't gone, but we forget to look back and go, Wow, look at how far I've come. And I think it's Bill Gates often says, you know, people overestimate what they can do in a day, a week or a month, but they underestimate what they can do in a year, five years or 10 years. So stop waiting for overnight success. Do the work, be consistent with the work, and then celebrate as you go, celebrate each step, and then look back and see how far you've come. Now, the obstacles got two challenging questions to ask you here. I'll go one at a time, that when we visualize those obstacles. Jill, how do we make sure that that doesn't become an issue that makes us freeze again. How do we okay? I now acknowledge that obstacle, and I have a plan around it, and I still take action. Instead of going, Oh, wow, there's so many obstacles in the way. And I stop altogether, and I get back to inaction.

Jill Schulman: 20:34

A couple of pointers to answer that question. Number one, is the whole point? Of identifying the obstacles is in order to come up with a contingency plan that you're confident or optimistic that you'll be able to overcome. So a really important part of this is not just identifying the obstacles, because then it might end up bringing into a negative, pessimistic mindset. It's in order to get to the top of that ladder. What are some things that may get in my way? And then once you identify those, then it's developing that optimistic viewpoint of I believe that I can overcome that, and if that does happen, what are the things that I can do to sidestep that? So identifying the obstacles should give you more confidence that no matter what comes your way, you're going to be able to overcome it. I'm also going to just bring it back to meaningful when you choose these goals, whatever's at the top of that ladder needs to be something that is really intrinsically motivating or important to you. This shouldn't be a goal that your spouse tells you that you should do, or your parents or someone else that needs to be something that's really important to you. You know, I'm a fan of Angela Duckworth and her work and her her book on grit, and she said, The only way you're going to have, you know, the the passion and the perseverance to achieve long term goals is if they really matter. So start off by making sure that what is your ladder up against? Make sure up as it get it's against the right wall of something that really matters, so that you're going to be able to get through some of the tough times, because it is so meaningful. Now, as you ask these questions, I'm like all my research and bravery is coming to fruition. So I have to tell you one more, and that is what I found, and what I'm writing about, and will be in my book, is that in order to be brave, we should have a brave tribe. There's going to be moments as we're climbing the ladder, or we're climbing that mountain to the path to, you know, the top of that mountain, we're going to maybe get stuck, or maybe get discouraged or not know how to overcome maybe an obstacle that we didn't see, and we have to be brave enough to sometimes ask for help or ask for support. So that's another part of being brave. It's not just the bravado on the outside and taking action in the in the presence of fear, it's being brave enough to be vulnerable and call up someone who has been up a similar ladder. So maybe someone has used the keynote speaker. I have people like this, people in my brave tribe, people who have gone from where I am to becoming on the biggest stages. And I can call them and say, Hey, can you help me with this? Can I run my ideas past you and how to overcome? What advice do you have so, so the combination of anticipating adversity and then knowing who are three or four people that have the credibility they know because they've been down that path before and they care about you that you can call to help. A combination of those two things should give you the the optimism and the confidence that if they come your way, you're going to be able to get get through them.

Mick Spiers: 23:52

Alright. Jill, there's some really powerful frames here. First of all, what's at the top of the ladder has to be meaningful to us, intrinsically meaningful to us. So as Nitschke, I think, puts it, he who has a powerful why can outlive or Outlast almost anyhow. So whatever life throws at you, if what's at the top of that ladder is important to you, you'll you will get through it. I'm also hearing that as you go on each step of the ladder, you're building the confidence that you will know what to do, and then with the visualization of the obstacle, you'll have a plan in mind of what are you going to do when that obstacle comes? Be aware it's coming, and you might have the right support crew around you to help you with that obstacle too. You don't have to do it all yourself. You don't have to do it all yourself. All right. The other part that really caught my attention before Jill was you said internal obstacles and external obstacles. What do internal and external obstacles look like?

Jill Schulman: 24:47

Alright, I think sometimes the internal obstacles are the hardest ones to overcome. Sometimes the hardest person to lead is to lead ourselves. So what I mean by internal obstacles are the lack of self belief, the things that are going on inside of your head that cause you not to act so. Internal obstacles are when we get in our own way. External obstacles are things that happen not within us, but outside of us that we have to negotiate to get around to achieve our goal. So I like using the example, example of going to the gym. When that alarm goes off in the morning, am I going to jump out of bed and put my gym clothes on and drive to the gym that's all about, and if there's anything that gets in my way of. Getting into the car and driving to the gym. That's how internal obstacles, that's my own, my own battle within me. External obstacles would be something like my car battery is dead, and now I don't have a way to get to the gym. Now, can I call a friend to give me a ride? Or maybe the weather is horrible and I'm having a hard time getting to the gym, right? So that's what I mean by internal and external. And if we use that analogy of the gym, and I ask your audience, what usually prevents you from maybe getting that workout in if you've got some health goals, it's usually not a problem outside. It's usually a problem within us.

Mick Spiers: 26:23

Yeah,mso it sounds like internal obstacles are things that are very much in our control and that we could take little steps to smooth the weight. Know that obstacle is coming. The obstacle of it's going to be easier to turn over and go back to sleep. Well, what if I laid out my gym gear the night before? What if I made it seamless and and made it easier to go to the gym than easier than to roll over and go to sleep, for example. So be aware that that internal obstacle might be coming, and then external obstacles might be things that are out of our control, but what we can control is our response to those. And once again, if we're ready for them, we'll know what to do. What am I going to do if I get to this point and this happens, I'm going to ask for help, or I'm going to pivot left, I'm going to pivot right. So yeah, I think the preparedness of all of this is really interesting.

Jill Schulman: 27:12

If I want to just if I can add one more thing too, is at least, I feel like in the organizations that I serve, we don't spend a lot of time really helping people with internal obstacles. So I don't know what you found, but you know, like in corporations, where we're investing a lot and how to do their job, like, and we, we try to set up a lot of mentoring programs. So I feel like it's like, how to do the skill and and how to do your job, and also like, how can we help each other and be collaborative? But we really helping people. If these internal obstacles are really one of the things that hold people back from becoming them, their best selves and being the most successful, we don't do a lot of work in corporate America talking about the cognitive side, the mindset side of performance, and I spend a lot of time with my clients doing that, and that ends up being, I think one of the things that makes the biggest impact is when we talk about, you know, those internal obstacles,

Mick Spiers: 28:15

I'm going to share with you one of my favorite quotes. I have multiple and a little secret for the audience, when I ask the guests at the end of the end of the show, what's your favorite quote, My guilty secret is I have many. So one of my favorite comes from Tim Galway, the author of the book The inner game. And he was his former life, was a tennis coach, but in a non directive coaching frame, and his equation for performance, his performance is equal to potential, our skills, our knowledge, the things that we can do, minus our interference. And the interference are the distractions and all this kind of stuff. And guess what? The title of his book, The Inner Game. Most of the interference is in here. It's not it's in your head. It's not external factors, and it's our perception of what's happening around us playing on our mind, and the fact that he's a tennis coach is a good example to show this. This is what you see on the tennis court with professional tennis players. It's the inner game inside the mind, the ones that can control that, and all of them can hit the ball relatively the same. They've all got a great serve, they've got a great forehand, they've got a great backhand. It's the ones that control the inner game are the ones that go on to become a Roger Federer, how does that sit with you?

Jill Schulman: 29:28

I love it. In fact, I usually quote the inner game and his book every time I spend time with leaders and teaching them how to coach. You know, when we're teaching coaching skills where we're we're saying the whole reason why we're coaching them is not to help them on the outer game, but it's helped them on the inner game. And the principal obstacles, according Galloway, is, you know, self doubt, right? So you know, when we can get people to overcome those obstacles within them, then just their potential becomes so much greater. So, yeah.

Mick Spiers: 30:01

Yeah, alright, powerful. Now, you also touched on something else that's near and dear to my heart. You were speaking before about the courage to ask for help, and this, for me, I think, is a big issue that we get wrong. A lot of us and societal expectations lead us somewhat in this way, to think that asking for help is a sign of weakness, whereas for me, asking for help is a sign of strength. You spoke before about having that support system around you and sticking up your hand when you do need help. Tell us about the science of bravery when it comes to asking for help.

Jill Schulman: 30:39

Yeah. So a sign of bravery is knowing where you are and what you need and being vulnerable enough to ask for that help. And so the third pillar in the three skills to build bravery, the third one is what I call brave relationships. And underneath that umbrella of brave relationships is asking for help. You know, it's really these, these three different pillars together. But if you are seeking to do challenging, difficult things that really matter to you, you're going to be out of your comfort zone. You're going to run into challenges that you may not anticipate, and when that happens, you need to be brave enough to admit you don't know, or admit that you need help, and then ask for that help. It's only going to accelerate your success and your development. So those people that want to, you know, pretend like, oh, I don't need any help. I'll figure it out on my own. It's actually not a really smart strategy. If you just want to be as successful as possible and get to the top of that ladder as quickly as possible, it's going to take you a lot longer. So there's like, two things, tangible things that I teach related to like, you know, asking, you know, for help is just knowing, like, what, where are you in terms of your journey to get to that mountain top, and then asking for whatever help and support that you need. So that's just in general. But then in addition to that, let's say things are going pretty well like for people who are more high performing, there is also a skill of always asking for feedback on how you can get better, back to professional tennis players, right? That hire professional coaches. They're not horrible at tennis. They're already great at being tennis, but the people that want to really achieve the highest levels of performance and accomplishment in the world are comfortable asking for feedback on how they can get even better. So if you're really down in the dumps, say, hey, I need help. But don't just wait until you're down in the dumps or you're stuck, when you're doing pretty well and you feel like, Oh, I'm at about an eight or nine out of 10. Then you've got to ask the people that you trust and say, What is a suggestion, or what are a couple suggestions that can get me to a higher level? And then when you ask that, really be curious and and when you get that answer, realize that's a gift, and that can help you get even better. So kind of more of a reactive when you need help, ask for it so that you can, you know, get back up on that ladder. But I really like the other side of it, which is proactively asking for feedback of what is just one suggestion on what I can do better to perform at a higher level that takes bravery to ask that?

Mick Spiers: 33:28

Yeah, I love it, so okay, ask for help when we need it. And there is vulnerability with that and but I also believe that there's trust there as well, because you're you're saying to the other person, I trust you enough to help me. When I'm sharing with you that I don't know the answer or I don't know what to do next, I trust you. Please help me. So the vulnerability and trust with that, and then the feedback, if you want to get better, even if things are not tough for you right now, if you want to elevate that performance to the next level, ask for some feedback, and you're right. Novak Djokovic, Roger Federer, Rafa Nadal, they all had coaches. Does anyone know how to play tennis better than those three? No, but they had coaches that could see things that they don't see and give them feedback on what they're not seeing. This is really powerful. Jill.

Jill Schulman: 34:17

Let me add something too, and it's it's who you ask for help and feedback that is very important. So I call it curating your brave tribe. So instead of just asking the people that are in your current circle, I really want to challenge people to think about who are the people that maybe even scare you a little back to like taking action in the presence of fear. Who is something that has maybe gone down that road that you want to go down the road that you look up to and go, Wow, they're amazing. So curating a brave tribe is finding the people who have the experience and the knowledge that can actually help you. But also it might be a little bit intimidating to go up and even ask them for help. You know, don't just sit back and wait for really successful people to see you sitting in the corner having a pity party. No, this is a proactive thing about going up to people who are a little bit maybe intimidating to you because they're so successful, but asking them for advice and feedback, I also, I just, I think Adam Grant, in his latest book, hidden potential, just said this so well in his book is, you know, he shared in his experience. So Adam Grant is that very famous organization. Psychologist from the Wharton School of Business. And you know, he says, even his experience, he goes, I don't take everyone's feedback, because some feedback from people. I may not really care about their opinion, but I really care about certain people's opinion. And though I'm going to go and ask the people that really know what they're talking about. Care about me and my success, so go and ask for the feedback, but don't also be careful to not ask for feedback from the wrong people. And I can even go as far as to say we're talking about being bravery. Sometimes the most well intentioned friends and family around you, they are more motivated to avoid risk, and they're going to tell you, don't do it right. Like, don't go for that promotion. Like, what if you'll fail? Like, that might be scary. Don't start your own business. Like, no. Stay safe. Stay on the easy path. So you've got to really be mindful about who you're asking for help and feedback from, and make sure that the people that are going to call forth the best in you and encourage you to achieve those things.

Mick Spiers: 36:49

Yeah, really good. So we're going to build our tribe. We're going to look outside, potentially our current inner circle and find that and that's going to be a brave step, to ask someone that you potentially have never met, or have only met a few times, to ask them for help and advice. That's a brave step in itself, coming back to your inner circle of people in your life today. Yes, they may have that risk aversion, or they may just tell you what they think you want to hear because they don't want to hurt you. So it may not be frank and transparent as well. All right, one more topic, at least, Jill, which is we, you said before, the obstacle is the way. What does that mean?

Jill Schulman: 37:30

I think what I mean by that, and of course, that comes from stoke philosophy. The obstacle is the way is, you know, I look at life and happiness and a life well lived as really looking back on our journey and looking at that person that we have become. And it's the moments where there's adversity, or something's hard, or there's an obstacle, where we have a choice. Are we going to run the other way and go away from what is hard, or are we going to choose the path that has the obstacle, but that's the path to meaning and making a bigger impact? I think of the story of Hercules. I actually have, I have my office filled with everything that inspires me. And I've got the famous painting of Hercules. You know, the famous story with Hercules is Hercules was on a path and had the choice between two women, one beautiful woman that would lead him to a path of pleasure and everything his heart desired, every hedonic, you know, pleasure he would have for the rest of his life. Or he could go down the other path, which was the path of virtue that would include adversity and obstacles, but then that journey would cause him to become the best version of himself and make the biggest impact. So I think many times we have those choices, where do I choose the easy path, or do I choose the challenging path. And if that challenge, that obstacle, is in the way, and many times it's in the way of of what's the really the right thing to do, we need to choose that harder path. And in the short term, there's it may not be as as pleasurable, but you know, anything we really want in life is on the other side of something really hard.

Mick Spiers: 39:25

Yeah, that's really powerful, Jill, so the things that we want are the other side of hard. And there's some really interesting things that you were ringing in my head as you're talking. One is the feeling that you get that when you face that obstacle and you overcome it, how proud you are when you do. But the most powerful thing that you said for me was it's not even about the journey, it's about who I'm becoming on the journey. So it's all of those obstacles making up the fabric of my future self to it's who I'm becoming. It's not even the destination. We spoke about the ladder before that. Yes, what's at the other end of the ladder has got to be important to us, so that we do do the right things, and we do the things that are congruent with our values. It's not even about the destination. It's not even about the journey. It's who we're becoming along the journey that we're getting 1% stronger, 1% wiser, 1% more resilient every day. How does that sit with you?

Jill Schulman: 40:22

Yeah, it's, it's like the hero's journey, like we can be our own hero in our own lives, and when we go down that hard path, I think that the level, and I'm Dutch saying even just what I think and it this is. Based on what we know in positive psychology is that when we when we go down that path, that is what leads to us having our best life, or to reflect back on our on our life, and say we have lived our best life, this is goes back to like well being and life satisfaction. So the obstacles the way actually leads us to highest levels of life satisfaction, which is again counterintuitive, where we started right now. Wait, I thought satisfaction is just everything being handed to you and obstacles being removed. You know, like Mick, I've got to tell you, I think our world, we've gotten too soft. I think people are confused, and they think that choosing comfort is the path to happiness, and the more we choose the easy path, the comfortable path, we remove obstacles, we get ensnared in a comfort trap, because then we're less at when we go down the comfortable path, we're less able to deal with challenging things in our future. So, you know, I say the obstacles the way that's going to create the best life, but it's going to make you ready for that next obstacle and make you resilient. So I feel like our world, just everyone needs to understand really the truth when it comes to comfort and discomfort, that comfort feels really good in the short term. But you know, you know comfort is the worst addiction, which is what Marcus Aurelius said, is the worst addiction. We need to choose the discomfort or the the hard path that is going to lead to the the life of happiness and well being.

Mick Spiers: 42:26

Yeah, yeah, I love it. The comfort is the worst addiction, because it is addictive too, by the way, like the pleasure is addictive, right? And the dopamine releases and and what happens with that pleasure is has an increasingly shorter half life, and you have to go back and do more of it to feel just as good anyway, whereas the discomfort and the obstacle does not feel like that. It feels hard and it feels like I'm growing. I'm at danger here of using far too many sports metaphors on my show here Gil but the one that I was thinking of when, when you're talking now, is golf. And imagine if Golf was really easy, and all you had to do was tee out the ball and hit it, and the ball went in the hole every time. No one would play golf that wouldn't be fun, that wouldn't be challenging, that wouldn't be interesting, no, and what a golf course is full of full of obstacles. And the interesting parts is, when you get behind an obstacle and you create a shot that gets you around that obstacle, that's the that's the one that you tell your friends about back at the bar after the you don't tell them about the easy shot. You tell them about the hard shot that you pulled off, right? So that's, that's where the growth is kind of hard.

Jill Schulman: 43:40

Yeah, so true. When you ask people about the best moments in life or their most proud accomplishments where they felt their best, they're always going to tell about those moments, of the moments. You know when I ask that question. So when I do a keynote, I tend to ask that question. Ask everyone to reflect, and if we have time in the keynote, they'll share that with a partner, so they'll share their stories or their most proud accomplishment, and then I say, tell me about the journey to get to that, to be able to accomplish your most proud accomplishment. Did it have adversity and challenges? They're like, yeah. And I go, and then I ask, are you at this point glad, or do you feel fortunate? Would you want to change the circumstances and remove that all those obstacles? Or are you glad you went through them? And 10 times out of 10 people say no, those obstacles, those challenges, made me who I am, and that's part of the reason why it felt so great to accomplish it.

Mick Spiers: 44:32

Yeah, really, really powerful channel. All right, you're an expert in happiness, so I can't not ask you this question. The other one that I've been doing a lot of reading and researching around is also about the happiness around attainment of the goal, and that it never feels as good as you think it's going to feel right. So if you've been striving for something for a long time, and then when you reach the goal itself, and I was saying before that it's not about the destination, but if you are attain that goal, it always feels a little bit anticlimactic. So you felt happy when you were on the pursuit and heading towards that goal. When you achieve that goal, there's a little bit of a Hmm, okay, I'm here now. What now?

Jill Schulman: 45:16

Maybe dissatisfaction, yeah.

Mick Spiers: 45:18

Yeah, tell me more.

Jill Schulman: 45:19

Or I think what the research shares is that when you when you accomplish that that goal, it does feel really great for a very short period of time, but it doesn't last, right?

Mick Spiers: 45:32

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Jill Schulman: 45:33

So yeah, it doesn't last. So I think one of the things that we know from positive psychology that we're really trying. To make sure that the world understands is instead of thinking that you will be happy when you accomplish the goal, it's flipping it and making people realize that it's generating the positive emotions, happiness that fuels your actions and your success on the journey up to the mountaintop. So instead of thinking that you'll be happy when you achieve the thing, instead you'll say happiness, or positive emotions, is what will accelerate you to your goal achievement. So I'd say that is one important message, and and when I say happiness too, you know when you when you study positive psychology, you really understand all the different terms. So what when people say happiness, really what they're talking about is positive affect, which is basically positive emotions like feeling joy or happiness. You know, all those happy emotions. And what we know based on the work of Barbara Fredrickson, who wrote a book called positivity, she says, You we have an ability to generate positive emotions. Some people think that, oh, emotions happen to me, and I'm a victim of my emotions, and there's nothing I can do. But Barbara Fredrickson research clearly states that's not true. We have an ability to generate positive emotions, and when we choose to generate positive emotions, where people sometimes equate to the word happiness, that ends up expanding our cognitive function, expanding our creativity, enhancing how we connect with others, all these things that make us more able to climb those steps to get to the mountaintop. So don't wait till the top of the mountain to be happy. Generate positive emotions on the journey.

Mick Spiers: 47:21

I think there's a complete additional podcast and everything you just said about that creating your own happiness and that other people don't make you unhappy. You choose to be happy in how you create that. I think we could do an entire show just on that. Jill, all right, look, thank you so much for this today. This has been really powerful. To summarize a few key things, what we're talking about here bravery is not the absence of fear. It's to take action despite fear, thinking about this reframing of loss. Instead of being worried about what you're going to be losing from acting, worry about what you're losing by not acting and taking actions now that will impact your future self. Think about what you what you need to do now, if you want to become the person you want to become, what action do you need to take now that's just outside your comfort zone that is the first step along that journey, to be aware of the obstacles that are going to come and be ready for them. Have your support crew around you, the right people that can help you ask for help when you need to ask for help, and always remember that the obstacle is the way and it's about who you're becoming on the journey. But it only happens if we take action, if we step just outside our comfort zone, that is where improvement and self development and everything you want is just the other side of your comfort zone. And as Jill said, all the things that you want in life are on the other side of heart. They're not on the other side of easy. All right, Jill, I've loved this conversation. I'm going to take us now to ask our four questions, our Rapid Round, the same questions we ask all of I guess. So what's the one thing you know now, Jill Schulman, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Jill Schulman: 49:06

This is a hard one, because there's so many, so many lessons that I could draw on, but I think it's this lesson that we're talking about, and I wish I had something new, but I wish I would have known when I was 20 is to take the leap to do what scares you. The reason why I say that is I'm really proud of my career trajectory and all the things that I've done, but I wish I would have taken the leap so much earlier in life. I think I would have been happier and accomplished so much more. And if I can just tell one little, tiny story, it was 26 years ago. I just looked it up of when it was when I just got another Marine Corps. I had my first job in corporate America. I was working for a large pharmaceutical company, and I was at a national sales meeting at these these are 1000s of people. So there's the big keynote speaker up on stage, and his name was Keith Harrell, and he talked about, your attitude affects everything in life. And I just remember his message. It's still it had such a profound impact on me, his message that I've taken it with me 26 years, and still, to this day, I feel like I remember and I live his message every day, because he was so great. And 26 years ago, I said, when he did that, I ran up to him afterwards, like I was a little groupy, like following going, like, you're amazing, like, I want to do what you're doing someday. It's been 26 years where I'm finally doing it. Why did it take me 26 years? Right? I should have taken. A leap faster. So for all of your viewers, just, you know, there's things that you really want that are important to you, but you're letting fear hold you back from from going towards, you know, start taking steps now, Don't wait.

Mick Spiers: 50:56

Yeah. Really good, Jill, and congratulations on your success. You've achieved that vision for 26 years. That's a really interesting connection for us all. I can't remember who says this one, Jill, but you know when? When is the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago? When is the second best time to plant a tree? It's today. So, so if you're listening to Jill, going, Yeah, well, you know, I could have taken action 10 years ago. Well, take it today. Yeah, yeah, you can regret that not taking it 10 years ago, and you should have, but take it today.

Jill Schulman: 51:30

Think about yourself. Remember the future self. Let's, let's get in that time travel exactly, and think of yourself 10 years from now and tell your, tell your future self to tell you what to do right now.

Mick Spiers: 51:41

Yeah, exactly. Very good. All right. What is your favorite book?

Jill Schulman: 51:46

My favorite book now changes, but right now, I have been just reading a lot of books on stoke philosophy, so I would have to say meditations by Marcus Aurelius is going to now.

Mick Spiers: 51:57

Yeah, really powerful. Okay. What's your favorite quote?

Jill Schulman: 52:00

Oh, I've got this one frame to the dust behind me, sure. So it's by Epictetus, probably my favorite philosopher, and he simply says, How long are you going to wait before you demand the best of yourself?

Mick Spiers: 52:15

Oh, okay, that hits. That hits hard. Okay, yeah, love it. All right, yep, I feel richer for having this conversation. I know that your audience would as well, and there's going to be people that would like to know more. Jill, how do people find you?

Jill Schulman: 52:29

People can go to my website, which is jillschulman.com, so first name, last name, jillschulman.com, and if they go to my website, they can take a bravery assessment. You know, there's three different things we talked about, like, do they have the brave mindset? Do they have the are they taking the brave actions? Do they have that brave tribe or the relationship? So it'll just give them an idea of where they're doing pretty well in areas that they can grow. And then with that, they'll get some actionable strategies, what they can do. So they can go to Jill Schulman. They can also follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, any of those. And I just always try to give a constant stream of messages to remind everyone that anyone can be brave. It's a learnable, practiceable skill, and anyone can be brave. And we know that absolutely with certainty, with all the scientific evidence, and I can show them how.

Mick Spiers: 53:23

Well. Thank you so much, Jill, you've absolutely inspired me. Today, I'm going to take away today's conversation. I'm going to think about it for quite some time, but I'm going to be thinking about what's important to me. What have I been avoiding? What have I been letting fear stop me from taking action? Think about what's important to me, and what are those steps that I can take just outside my comfort zone, so I can be proud of my you know, in the future, be proud of myself, that I took those actions and that I acted despite fear, that I prepared for the obstacles and I and I got on with it. So thank you so much. Jill, this has been absolutely wonderful.

Jill Schulman: 53:58

Oh, thank you. I enjoy the conversation so much as well. Thank you for having me.

Mick Spiers: 54:03

What a fantastic conversation with Jill Schulman. Bravery isn't just about grand heroics. It's about the small choices we make every single day. It's about speaking up when it's easier to stay silent, taking a risk when failure feels terrifying, and pushing forward even when doubt creeps in. In the next episode, it's going to be a solo cast where I share my own reflections on this amazing conversation with Jill and I share my own lessons about overcoming fear and limiting beliefs. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.