235. From Fear to Framework: Mastering Feedback with Sue Anderson

What if you could change your workplace forever with just one conversation? Join us for an insightful session with Sue Anderson, a leading coach and the brilliant mind behind "Feedback Fitness." Together, we unravel why the very concept of feedback often triggers negative emotions and how our "feedback footprint" can impact our perception of it. Whether you view feedback as a growth opportunity or a critique, Sue offers a new perspective by reframing feedback as an offer rather than a mandate, empowering both the giver and the receiver.

Emotions run deep in feedback exchanges, and understanding this emotional landscape is key to fostering trust and transparency within teams. We explore the notion of "armoring up" and how vulnerability can transform the quality of feedback, ultimately reducing the risk of missed opportunities and high turnover. Through Sue's fitness analogy, feedback is broken down into manageable phases—warm-up, workout, and cool-down—to ensure clarity and alignment in communication, emphasizing the platinum rule of treating others how they wish to be treated.

Our discussion extends to the practical application of feedback strategies, centered on establishing permission and intent to create psychological safety. Learn the nuances of delivering feedback that aligns with individual preferences and organizational goals. With insights inspired by Viktor Frankl, Sue illustrates the power of choice in how we respond to feedback, encouraging continuous improvement. Tune in for invaluable resources and practical guidance from Sue Anderson, designed to elevate your feedback skills and cultivate a more open and productive workplace culture.

🌐 Connect with Sue:
• Website: https://www.sue-anderson.com.au/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sueandersongood2gr8/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sueanderson2019/

📚 You can purchase Sue's books on Amazon:
• Feedback Fitness: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0987560913/
• Unshakeable at Work: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GCQCKF9/
• Unbullyable: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GCXSIK8/

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Learn the why, what and how of fostering a mentally healthy workplace with Dr Bill Howatt

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• 9:54 [Ad] Exploring Workplace Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
• 10:44 (Cont.) 235. From Fear to Framework: Mastering Feedback with Sue Anderson

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

When you hear the word feedback, how do you feel? Does it spark anxiety, hesitation or even fear? How do you feel when feedback is offered to you, and how do you feel when it's time for you to give feedback to others? If you've ever struggled with giving or receiving feedback, you're not alone. This week, we're joined by Sue Anderson, author of Feedback Fitness. Sue is here to help us reframe our relationship with feedback, offering a powerful framework that will allow us to not only embrace feedback, but also use it as a tool for growth. We'll dive into how to overcome those limiting beliefs, address the emotions tied to feedback, and ultimately build a feedback culture that's constructive and empowering. Stay tuned. Sue's insights are truly transformative. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Sue Anderson. Sue is a coach, a speaker and the author of three books, unbelievable, unshakable at work and her latest book, The one I'm holding up now for those watching on the video, called Feedback Fitness, and that's going to be our focus today, about giving and receiving feedback and why it's such a hurdle for many of us in the workplace, and a framework that Sue has developed that can help us to do it with more precision and with more value. So without any further ado, Sue, I would love for you to introduce yourself to the audience, and I'd love to know what inspired you to write this book about Feedback Fitness?

Sue Anderson: 1:42

Great. Thanks, Mick. Hi everyone. Yes. So well, what about me? So I'm Sue Anderson. I live in regional, Victoria, Ballarat, and I work mainly with teams, leaders, organizations. I work as a coach, so a lot of one on one coaching, which means I have a lot of confidential conversations with leaders. And something that comes up again and again is, you know, struggling with feedback. I also work with teams. So I work with teams that are high conflict. And again, what I've seen in those teams is the conflict or the tension has resulted from feedback not being offered very well. I do leadership programs and what else do I do? I think that's probably enough for now, but it gives you the idea, you know, I'm in the workplace talking having lots of confidential conversations with with leaders and people at all levels in the organization as well.

Mick Spiers: 2:43

Yeah, really good. The word feedback does get a visual reaction from some people. You even start your book with something like that. It says something like, Hey, I have some feedback for you. And the reaction that people can have to even the word feedback can be quite negative and emotional for them. What do you think has happened in the world that that feedback is a dirty word like this?

Sue Anderson: 3:08

It is. It really is. So even if you're listening along, just have a think about, you know, when you hear the word feedback, what comes to mind straight away? And I've, I've asked 1000s of people this question, and typically they'll say things like, oh, it means I've done something wrong. That's a really, really common answer. Every now and then, people will say, Oh, you know, it means opportunity and growth. So they've got a different belief about feedback. So I honestly think we all walk around with a backpack filled with our our feedback footprint. So in that backpack, we've got our, you know, our very first experiences of feedback in the workplace. So think back to when you first, maybe you got a part time job when you're a teenager. Most people, when I ask them, Can, can think of, oh, yeah, you know, someone offered me feedback, and it really helped me, and it helped me feel more confident. Yet other people will say it was awful and I felt humiliated or belittled. So we've all got our beliefs, our experiences, our values, our history of feedback, and we carry that around with us. So if your belief is receiving feedback is scary, awful, dangerous, and I'm going to feel silly that's going to show up in your behaviors around, you know, do you ask? Do you actively ask for feedback, or do you try and avoid it? So I really like to explore people's beliefs about feedback before, you know, teaching them any skills? Because it's kind of like if you went and did a public speaking course, you can have all the skills. You can know where to stand, what to do with your hands, but if your belief is still public speaking is terrifying, you're still going to avoid you'll try and avoid it. So yeah, that's where I always start when I'm working with people, what do you believe about feedback.

Mick Spiers: 5:01

Yeah, it's really interesting, and the story that we tell ourselves about it is very powerful, and that's going to grab hold of us. We're at risk here of turning this into a one on one coaching session here for a second Sue. But I'm going to share, we're going to share some of my beliefs, because I know that this is incongruent and inconsistent, right? So my belief has on the receiving end of feedback is that feedback is a gift, that it's an opportunity for me to learn and grow, and I would be mortified if I was doing something wrong that was making someone else, you know upset all their life more difficult than it needed to be, and they didn't tell me. So I'd be mortified if the feedback wasn't given, and when the feedback is given, of course, you know your your confidence or your ego takes a bit of a hit, but then you go, Okay, I'm going to work on this. I'm going to grow from this. But here's the thing, then, as a leader giving feedback, I hold myself back. How can that be? That's a incongruent situation.

Sue Anderson: 6:02

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And look, you're not alone. Mick, so when you think about and I like to say, instead of giving feedback, I like to say, you're offering feedback, because giving feedback sounds like the other person has no choice here. I'm just going to give this to you, whereas if you're the person offering the feedback, you're putting it out there, and then you're empowering the other person to decide if they're going to accept the feedback, consider the feedback, and take the feedback on board. But you're right. Mick, what can very often get in the way is, if you're someone and you you need to offer someone feedback, or you'd like to you might be worried about a few things. You might be worried about, what if I offer this other person the feedback and they take it personally? That's a big one. You know, you've worked so hard to build a relationship with someone, it almost feels like a bit of a risk that if I offer them the feedback and it you know, they they misinterpret, or they get offended, or they take it personally, or they become upset that I'm going to damage this relationship, that I've worked so hard so they're they're two reasons. What if the other person takes it personally? What if I damage the relationship? Leaders have also shared with me why they're a bit hesitant to offer feedback is, what if it just gets really awkward and I've got to work with this person for the rest of the day, the rest of the week, you know, ongoing. So especially when you've got to have an ongoing relationship with someone, it can feel a bit riskier to offer the feedback. What if I offer this feedback and the other person gets really upset or angry? Now that's going to tap into, what do you believe about emotions, and what do you believe about other people experiencing emotions? And then finally, the there is one that comes up is, what if I offer this person feedback? They get really upset, and they go to HR, and they say that I'm bullying them, and they put in a complaint about about me and my feedback or my my leadership. So it almost feels easier. Sometimes it almost feels like it's just not worth it yet. I think a lot of the reason is we don't have a framework. So we were kind of a little lost. We're walking into these feedback conversations, not really sure how they're going to go. So therefore it's just safer if I if I don't do it. And so that's what feedback fitness is. It gives people a framework in which to have those conversations and think of it. Here's another language point. Think of feedback as feedback conversations, not a speech that you're going to write out rehearse, and then you'll just deliver it, and then the other person will just, you know, accept it, and then you'll go away. And it's almost like we shall never speak of this again. So think of feedback as a series of conversations.

Mick Spiers: 8:58

So there's a couple of really important language points there that I'm picking up. I really love what you're saying here about we're offering feedback, not giving feedback, and then that gives the opportunity to the other person to choose whether they want to take the feedback. How are they going to interpret the feedback? What are they going to do with that feedback? So it's an offering. It's not hey, I'm going to give you some feedback, whether you like it or not. So that's that's a good reframing. Straight away. We'll get to your framework in a moment. I want to go further into some of these limiting beliefs. The second reframe there that you said about the it's an ongoing conversation. It's not once a year. How else can we overcome some of these limiting beliefs that you're talking about? The ones that you're talking about are the ones that many leaders expect. Many leaders experience. They're worried about their action. They're worried about the complaint for HR, that's that's very real. How does someone take the first step to get beyond some of those limiting beliefs that you're talking about, Sue?

Sue Anderson: 10:35

How do they take the first step? So the very first step would be. Ask yourself, what do you believe about feedback in general? Because, like I was saying before, if you believe feedback, conversations, any sort of feedback, and you have, like, a semantic response, you know it's you've got this physical response going on to do a bit of a quality check. So a quality check is like asking yourself, are my beliefs about feedback, whether it's offering, receiving or feedback in general, are they useful? Because your belief about that was useful at some point in your life. Now, if you're maybe a leader, and you're leading a team of five people, your beliefs that you had when you were a teenager about feedback aren't going to be relevant, so it's almost like quality checking and updating the usefulness of your beliefs about feedback. So I, what I would do is I wrote 101 questions that you can ask yourself about feedback to really pull apart. What's your belief system? Because you won't just have one belief. The other thing I would recommend is, is it really the feedback that maybe you're having a fear response to, or you're feeling a bit hesitant about? The reason I say that is, I reckon, and this is my theory, it's not the feedback, it's the emotions that go with the feedback. And so then you can ask yourself, what do I believe about experiencing emotions at work? Do I have them, or do they have me? How empowered Am I to change my state or change the meaning I'm giving to the feedback so that the emotions that come from that are different? Because I think some people believe feedback can make me feel stupid, upset, belittled, wonderful, incredible, confident, and so we want to move away from that. Feedback can make you feel something and more towards you know, I'm open to receiving the feedback, and I can choose how I respond. And feedback can't make me feel anything. It's the meaning I give to the feedback, and we have choice in the meaning that we give to the feedback. So there's there's emotions. The other thing that if you have a fear response to feedback, you'll armor up. And so I tap into the work of Dr Brene Brown, who's an American social worker and researcher, and she lists a whole heap of different ways in which we try and protect ourselves by armouring up. So it's things like, you know, getting aggressive or avoiding or blaming. So when you're receiving feedback, really notice if any of these armours are coming up for you, because that's a sign that's great feedback. That you're having a bit of a fear response here, you're feeling a bit threatened, and it could be you're feeling threatened that you're going to look silly at work, or that you've made a mistake, or that you've let someone down, or that you know you're going to be exposed, that maybe your team will see that you're not such a great leader, or that you're not as smart as what everyone you know thinks you are. These are the worries that people have. So feedback, yes, that's part of it, but I reckon what goes with that is the emotions, and also that, you know, we can armor up when we're armoring, armored up to protect ourselves. We're not going to be open to feedback.

Mick Spiers: 13:53

Yeah, really good, Sue. I'm going to share a few things that I'm taking away from this. And you've already given me something I'm going to work on after this show, and throughout this year, we're start of 2025 so this is a great opportunity for us to work on this throughout this year. So the first one I'll tell you how I overcome the inertia is I do remind myself that feedback is a gift, that when I'm on the receiving end of the feedback, how much I appreciate it and that it's almost unfair not to give the feedback. Imagine not giving the feedback and then a year later giving the person their performance appraisal and saying you didn't meet expectations all year. That's unfair. That's unfair to not give them the feedback. So feedback is a gift, and it's unfair to hold back the feedback. That's what gets my overcoming inertia. The thing that you've got me thinking about now is then the emotion, and I'm thinking about it from both the receiving and the offering part here. What are the emotions that I'm worried about as the offer? What am I worried about here? What is this emotion? Why this emotion? What is this emotion telling me? Is it the fear of the awkwardness? Is it the fear that I'm going to upset them because I'm a bit of a people pleaser and processing that emotion, and then on the receiving end, they're going to have their own emotions, but they can choose how they respond to those emotions, and it's not it's not on me to choose for them or to invalidate their emotions. It's for them to decide how they're going to respond. Is something that I'm taking away here. Maybe I shouldn't overthink that allow them. They're a human being, they can control their own emotions. And then the third one, this armoring up. And I'm, once again, I'm thinking of it in two ways. Is the offer armoring up, and is the receiver? Are armoring up, and if we're both armoring up, the value of the conversation is going to be greatly diminished. We're just going to be it's not transparent anymore. It's not open, it's not vulnerable anymore. It's not going to work. How does that sit with you?

Sue Anderson: 15:56

Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. So you imagine, I imagine, you know that a knight in shining armor, and they've got the full metal outfit on, even the the helmet, we've got the feather out the top and and it's almost like I can't hear the other person, because I've got this metal around my head, and they can't hear you talk. You got metal. So, yeah, if you've got two arm and up people, it's just the feedback doesn't work, and it doesn't work. And so you've got the danger in organizations of so much lost opportunity, lost learning, because feedback conversations are not happening, or they're happening, but like you're saying that they're not happening to a very high standard. And there's so much lost opportunity and lost time. And I was talking to someone just the other day, and wasn't just the other day, because we've just had a Christmas break. It was probably a month ago, and they said I resigned from an organization because I was not getting feedback. I was asking for feedback, and I was not getting and they said, if I'm not learning and growing in the role, I am going to leave. And so they left, but on the exit or during the exit interview, the HR person and the manager said, Oh my gosh, you know, we're so sorry to lose you. You're amazing, you're fantastic. You loved your work. And she said to them, you didn't tell me that, like it's too late now you had have told me, offered me that feedback back then I would have stayed, but you didn't. So this is how important it is. So it's an expensive problem. If you've got a culture in the organization where feedback conversations are not happening, or they're happening really poorly, part of the team conflict work I do, it's you know, that there's high conflict team. And I go in and I figure out what's going on, and a lot of it is the feedback, and even, you know, the peer to peer feedback, it's not happening. Well, people are taking offense. People stop offering feedback. People are not offering feedback, but they're talking about people's performance behind their back, you know, out in the car park. So, yeah, it's really important that you have clear, you know, you're really clear on your beliefs, because how you show up, and your beliefs and your thinking styles are going to have such an impact on the way you offer feedback. So if, if you think feedback scary awful, you will be hesitant to offer it to someone else, because you will also think that they think that feedback scary and awful. So, yeah, there is a solution. Do you want to start talking about the solution, Mick, are you still interested in the.

Mick Spiers: 18:38

Yeah, I want to unpack a couple of steps more, and then we'll then we'll get into the framework. The framework is excellent, by the way, and I'm looking forward to dig into that. So few things that I'm taking away there is about whether my beliefs are impacting the way that I show up as the offer of the feedback. And then I'm got some questions I'm asking about the emotions to myself here, about when I'm holding myself back from giving that feedback, am I doing that to protect them, or am I doing that to protect me? There's the emotion and the and the armor element of that. Then there's the temporal aspect, that feedback doesn't age well. And in this case that you're talking about, where the person got so bad that they even left the organization. That's pretty extreme, but feedback, both the positive and constructive feedback, is not going to age well. It's better to be timely when people can remember and they can do something about it, then the other one that I'm picking up here Sue. I'm going to share something we spoke about on the show before, which is we fundamentally believe that we get the behavior that we celebrate, we get the behavior that we reward, and we get the behavior that we tolerate. And I think feedback plays a huge role in this, that for the positive feedback, the valuable feedback that the person can repeat, we're giving feedback on the things that we want to see, the behaviors that we want to see. We're celebrating and rewarding by giving the feedback, because then the person is going to go, oh well, the boss like that. I'm going to do it again sometime. And then the insidious one is, we get the behavior that we tolerate if we're not giving the feedback on behaviors that are not congruent with the values of the team and the organization. Guess what? That behavior continues and it starts to become toxic in the organization. What are your reflections there about those kind of elements of the still, again, the emotion, then about the timing aspect, and then about the celebrate, reward and tolerate.

Sue Anderson: 20:41

The emotion is definitely a big one, and gosh, you could do a whole half day workshop just on emotions, and especially that fear response. Let's also talk about the ability of feedback to build confidence in someone. So if you think of confidence attached to a particular skill, so I'm confident in my ability to write the Jones report, rather than I'm confident as a person. There's research that says, you know, when someone's new to the team or new to a particular skill, absolutely smother them in No, don't smother them. Provide plenty of feedback, letting them know what they're doing well. So that acknowledgement feedback. But this is where you know, the word it depends, comes up a lot. If you've got someone in your team and they've been doing this skill for a long time, and you come in and offer lots of you know, you're doing a great job. That's really awesome. That can be perceived also as a bit condescending. So I reckon a useful phrase is to whenever you're thinking about having a feedback conversation or or thinking about your team, is that it depends, because it's got to be really tailored to you and your leadership style and what's going on in your team and the people in your team. So that was the emotions on what was the second one you said, Mick?

Mick Spiers: 22:00

Yeah, so the, the second one was then about the temporal aspect, about it doesn't age. Well, what's, what's the right timing for this feedback?

Sue Anderson: 22:08

So I've looked at all the research I can find around feedback. There is no right timing because it depends. So when we start on the framework, that's something that you would talk about in, you know, one on one or with your team, about what's the what's the right timing? Because it could be, you know, someone might say, I want, I would love you to give me feedback straight away. And you'll say, Well, I will as much as possible, but it's going to depend on where we are, what's the feedback, who's in the room? So you know that you can look at the research, and you know, there's one research that says, you know, offer feedback at least every week, and formal feedback every three months. And I think, no, there's too many factors. It really does depend. Depends on your relationship, the person, their style, their preference, which we can get into when we talk about the framework. But the importance of that acknowledgement feedback this. So the acknowledgement feedback is, this is what you're doing really well. That comes through again and again as important, even if that person's been, you know, working in your team for a long time. Most people, we can talk more about this later, but most people, they really appreciate that you've noticed, that, you know, they've been persisting, or that it's been hard at the moment, and that they keep showing up really well. So yeah, but we'll get into the three types of feedback later.

Mick Spiers: 23:39

Alright, really good. So let's, let's get into the framework now. So you've given it an analogy similar to fitness. So feedback fitness and we you talk about a warm up, a workout and then a cool down. Talk us through the major phases of the framework.

Sue Anderson: 23:55

Yeah, sure. So I'm a runner, so it was based on the metaphor of whatever sport you do, but you wouldn't go and do a hard workout. You wouldn't go and, you know, run 100 meters, sprint down the track in spikes coming out of starting blocks, flat out without first doing a warm up. So because the chances of you hurting yourself are higher, not to say that, you know you you would definitely hurt yourself, but the risk is really high, and you're going to perform better from a workout. So most people can relate to the idea of do a warm up before you do the workout. So think of the the warm up phase as the first start in the framework. So if you've ever been in the situation where you're like, I don't know how to do this feedback thing. I should know I've been a leader for seven years, but I still don't know how to do it. You know, you might never have had a good role model in feedback, because if you think about it, a lot of feedback conversations happen in private, so you haven't got to see and observe that. So start with your warm up. So think of your warm up is your preparation. So if you don't like the metaphor, the warm up is your planning and your preparation. And this is a conversation that you have with whoever you're going to be having ongoing feedback conversations with, where you're setting the scene for all your future feedback conversations. So in a nutshell, it's a meta conversation. You're talking about feedback, but you're not actually offering any feedback in this warm up conversation. So this could be a once a year bigger conversation. You could do it one on one, or you could do it as a team, and you're talking about just like we were talking about before. Mick. You're asking the other person about their beliefs about feedback, about their feedback experiences. You're asking them, how do they like to receive feedback? You're asking them things like, you know, the timing around feedback, and it's a negotiation question as well. So you're letting them know the reason why you're going to be having these feedback conversations, you're going to be talking about emotions that might come up. So it's almost like you're getting everything out on the table when it's, you know, a very neutral time, there's not any feedback you know that you're going to slam dunk them with. You're talking about things like permission. So, hey, part of my role is to provide you with ongoing, you know, really useful feedback. You're asking them lots of questions about how they like to receive it. So people have different feedback preferences. Do they like? You know, concrete examples? Yes, okay. How many concrete examples do you like? Do you like time to talk and then go away and reflect and then circle back and have a second conversation after you've had time to process it? And so you're setting the scene so there are no surprises. So you'll be talking about, you know, we're going to be having our weekly one on one catch ups. So you're planning it all out so that when it comes to having the workout, which is the workout is where you're actually having the feedback conversations, there are no surprises. Everyone's really, really clear on what's going on, so it gives people confidence in you and how the future feedback conversations are going to go. So I reckon this warm ups for both the person offering the feedback and the person who's going to be receiving the feedback.

Mick Spiers: 27:27

I think it's really good in terms of setting expectations for both so that there is no surprises. I encourage everyone to get a copy of the book. By the way, in the book, there's amazing questions that can help have that conversation with the other person, both on the offering ladder, or what you call your offering ladder, and your receiving ladder. Thinking about those questions, ask yourself those questions, ask your the other person that you're going to have the feedback relationship with. Ask these questions to help you understand the feedback relationship that you're going to have. I think that's wonderful. I then do find it sue that it is very, I'm going to say, unique to the individual. And you've got this process here, tailored intention and permission. And we talk about the tailored to start with, it is quite unique. Some people just want it blunt. Other people want a detailed conversation. Other people want it short and sharp, so having that conversation is going to set the scene for everyone, so that no one's uncertain about how is this conversation going to go and how is it going to serve both parties? Well, tell us more about tailored.

Sue Anderson: 28:35

Tailored came from a team I was working with. And so when I work with a team, I get to work with, you know, all the team members, and the leader, so tailored was a leader saying, you know, my team aren't very good at receiving feedback. And I was like, Okay, what's, what's going on here? How, you know, talk me through how you're offering the feedback. And he said, and his intentions were good, but he said, I offer them feedback the way I like to receive feedback. And I said, Oh, yeah, what's that? How's that? And he said, direct it in the moment. And I thought, oh, okay, so he's offering makes sense. He's offering feedback the way that he likes to receive it. So he's not tailoring it to the eight different people in his team. He's making the assumption that they all like to receive feedback the way he likes to receive feedback. So when I shared with him, you know, that people like to receive feedback differently, he and he'd been a leader for a long time, he was like, I've never thought about this. I just assumed everyone would what else would like to receive it directing in the moment. So he really had to learn how to ask his team members individually. How do you like to receive feedback? Rational and really listen. And I encouraged him even to write down notes. Rational likes to receive feedback, not in public, even positive, what people call positive feedback. So again, he was really surprised that rational didn't like the public positive feedback that he'd been offering. So again, his intentions were good. He thought he was being a great leader by offering this, you know, positive feedback to rational in front of everyone. But when he sat down and asked rashna, rashna said, No, I feel really awkward when you do that. I'd prefer if you didn't. So he was like, Oh my gosh, I've gotta really have my attention out. I've gotta really listen and hear, make notes, and then in the one on one he actually pull, he would pull out the notes just before his one on one, so that he could get really specific. Rational likes feedback offered this way. But this is the warm up. This is where you sit down and say, rational, tell me, how do you like to receive feedback? And if rational says it depends, great, ask rational about what does it depend upon? That's gold for you as leader, yeah, and then write it down. Now some people will say, I don't know, because they've never thought about it. How do you like to receive feedback? I don't know. So then you ask them, Can you think this is searching for a reference point now, can you think back to a time, maybe in another organization, where someone offered you feedback and it landed really well for you? And they'll go, oh yeah, I had this leader, and she was awesome. How did she do it? So you're really getting into what's landed well for them in the past. How did, how did that leader do it? So that's the tailored that's really attention out putting your own beliefs, your own preferences, to the side, and going, Hey, how can I be the best leader for you and offer feedback in a way? Now you also might have to negotiate that, because I had one situation where the person said to the leader, I would like to sit down with you every Friday afternoon for 30 minutes and for you to give me feedback on how I've gone for the week. And I'd like three, you know, different types of feedback. And the leader said, Look, I'd love to, I'm not going to have time to do that. What I will do is this, this and this, are you okay if I send you feedback via a text message every now and then, or in our, you know, teams chat, or, you know, whatever, it's not always going to be face to face, so their preference was face to face. So the leader said, I'll try as much as I can. We've got our fortnightly catch ups, but it could be a quick phone call as we're driving blah, blah, blah. So it's a bit of negotiation as well, so that you're not setting these expectations up, and then as leader, you can't meet them.

Mick Spiers: 32:37

Yeah, really good. I like the negotiation and the conversation element of that. And then, really, to me, it embodies the graduation from the golden rule to the platinum rule. So moving from treating other people the way you want to be treated, to be treating other people the way they want to be treated, and the way to do that is the conversation. The one thing I might add, one thing I might add there Sue is when you do ask your team members this question, it may come as a shock. They may have gone their entire career, and no one's ever asked them this question. You may need to give them a week and say, Hey, all right, I've caught you off guard with this question today. Why don't you go away and think about it? Let's come back in a week's time, and I love your example of think about times in your in your past where feedback has landed. Well, for you, what was it about that feedback that's really that's a really good one as well.

Sue Anderson: 33:26

And it could be in a sporting environment. You know, I had this great swimming coach when I was a teenager who was blah. Could be stuff out of work. The other thing I just just on that Mick. The other thing is, if you really want to establish a feedback fit culture in your organization. Wouldn't it be great if, at recruitment, you said to people, Hey, come and work in our team. We have feedback conversations. You know, you'll be provided with these different types of feedback. We really value your learning and your growth. And then at you know, interview, a simple question, what are your thoughts on feedback conversations in the workplace, or, which is a different way of saying, What do you believe? If you ask someone, what do you believe about feedback, sometimes it throws them a bit. If you say, what are your thoughts? What's your experience? You know, to what degree do you value feedback conversations? This is in the interview, so you're already starting to pull and, you know, listen to their beliefs about feedback, because my own personal belief is and in the induction as well. Hey, welcome. Once you've settled in, we're going to be having our a conversation about feedback. It's going to go for about 45 minutes, which will it's going to set up all our future feedback conversations. So, yeah, I think that really starting to understand their beliefs about it. Because my my belief is, if someone's not open to feedback, they're not feedback. Give a ball, they're not they're less likely to be leadable, manageable. Do you know what I mean? Coachable. So I think this is a vitally important thing to talk about right at the start.

Mick Spiers: 35:05

I think it's a very valuable question to ask at an interview on both the offering and the receiving side. If you're interviewing a potential leader in your business, ask them about their thoughts, about offering feedback and then about receiving feedback. Really good. All right, the next part of the framework is intention. And I think this is another one where assumptions can really bring us asunder. Tell us about the word intention and what it means in the framework.

Sue Anderson: 35:31

Yeah. So this came from my own research I did. Now, when I say research, it was not peer reviewed, rigorous, vigorous academic research. It, but I have interviewed and I have surveyed 1000s of people, and what came through very clearly is, if you as leader have not set A and not communicated a clear intention, if you've not shared with people the reason why you're offering feedback, they will fill in the gaps. And the things that they fill in the gaps with us are things like, Oh, why is she offering me this feedback? Why? Why is she sucking up to me? What's this about? And so there's this almost, this fear response of, they're only saying this because, so that's where it's really, really important that you when you're having the so the remember the warm up conversation. You're not offering any feedback. You be so clear. You say, the reason we are going to be having feedback conversation is this, this and this. What do you think about that my intention in offering you regular, ongoing feedback is that I'd love you to succeed in the role and grow and blah, blah, blah. So you're being very, very clear. So that's in the warm up conversation, and there's a little sentence. I don't know if you want to get to it yet, Mick, but it's you remind people just before you offer feedback, the reason why you're offering the feedback. So it goes something like, Hey, Mick, is it okay if I offer you some feedback on the way that you were formatting the Jones report. And then you say, You nod, and then you say, because. Now the word because is very powerful. The word because sends the message, I've got a good reason. So what you're what you're actually saying is, I'm offering you this feedback because I would love you to be able to, you know, send off that Jones report, and it's but you actually you better to tap into some of their reasons. What they've said is important about feedback, so include that intention in your warm up, but also that little reminder, hey, I'm offering you this feedback because a little tip, and unfortunately, I was coaching someone, and they did it. They did the warm up conversation where they they went through, you know, what do you believe about receiving feedback and what's important to you about receiving feedback? And the other person said, this, this and this. And unfortunately, at the end of the warm up conversation, they offered them some feedback that they wanting to offer them for a while. So it felt like a big, a big setup. It felt like you've made me say, I'm open to feedback, and these are the, you know, growth, blah, blah, blah, and now you've, you've slammed onto me with this feedback that you've been wanting to offer me for six months, but you've been too afraid, so just to make sure that that feedback conversation is not followed by a feedback workout, not the big one.

Mick Spiers: 38:23

Yeah. Got it, yeah. This whole thing around intentions, if someone is second guessing your intentions or your motives, that's not a good sign. So having that conversation with clarity is really good. And I loved what you said about maybe even playing back some of their own words, back to them and say, I'm giving you this feedback because you asked me last week about, you know, it could be, you know, it's in their frame, not in your frame. I really quite like that, but also making sure it's you're not just manipulating the conversation. That's not going to that's not going to land well, either. All right, tell us about permission.

Sue Anderson: 38:59

Oh, permission is about trust. It's about creating psychological safety. And it sounds weird, doesn't it, like, Yeah, but I'm their leader. Of course, I have permission to offer them the feedback. It's a bit of buy in, it's a bit of respect. So in the warm up conversation, the permission bit is, you know, we're going to be having conversations, and you'd say both ways, it's not just me as leader offering you feedback and you just accepting it and taking it. It's as leader, I would also love to receive feedback from you, but we need to put some scope around it. So we need to make sure that you know the feedback I'm going to be offer you is about the tasks you're doing, how you're showing up as a team player. What is useful is to get out, you know, the job description or the position description, and say, These are the the areas in which I'm going to be offering you. We're going to be having feedback conversations about these. How does that sit with you? So lots of lots of check in, lots of asking permission. What I'm not going to be offering you feedback on is your parenting, or what you're eating for lunch or what you choose to do on the weekends, that's out of that scope of permission. So yes, it's an unnecessary step, but I tell you what, it's a powerful step, because it very it's very empowering for the other person to say, Yes, I give you permission to offer me feedback, then in the little warm so the the little sentence right before you offer feedback is something like, Hey, Mick, is it okay if I share something I've noticed about? Because we always want to task. That's our mission again, because if they say or it could be. You know, if they love feedback, you'd say, hey, Mick, I've got some feedback for you. Is that? Okay? It's about the way you formatted the Jones report. If they've said the word feedback is terrifying for me, we wouldn't say, Hey, I've got some feedback I'd like to offer you. You'd say, I've got some insight. Or you've asked them. If someone in the warm up says feedback, oh, the word, you ask them, How would How would you like me to phrase it? What are some other words, some data, some information and insight. So you make sure that you're using that permission as a way of establishing safety. Yes, you don't have to, but it's very empowering. And if in the moment when you're offering the feedback, someone says, No, then you know, something's changed since you've had that warm up conversation. And that's where I'd go into Are you okay?

Mick Spiers: 41:31

Yeah. Curiosity.

Sue Anderson: 41:33

Like something's changed, yeah? Curiosity and compassion and empathy, because if you've taken the time as leader to set up all your future feedback conversations, and then three months down, you say, Hey, can I share something I noticed about the way you were presenting at the board meeting? And they go, no. Then you're like, okay, something's changed when, and that's when you want to go to, yeah, I'm curious about what's changed, care and compassion. It doesn't happen very often if you've had the warm up conversation, but it could be No, because I've just had a phone call from the school. They think my daughter's broken her arm.

Mick Spiers: 42:07

Yeah, right, exactly. All right, really good. Okay, so let's and on the permission. And a big theme that's coming through, by the way, is the power of language and everything you're saying. Sue, so the reframing of, you know, change the word feedback for insights, or, you know, I love that. That's really good. And then with the permission, the way that you did it was back to offering your offering. You're offering feedback, and you're inviting them to say, yes, I would like that feedback. Very good. All right, let's get to the workout itself. So you speak in the framework of three types of feedback, acknowledgement, evaluation and guidance. Tell us about the three different types.

Sue Anderson: 42:45

Yeah, do you want a super easy way to remember them? So we've got in the bigger framework, it's easy, the warm up the workout and the cool down. So the workout is the bit where you're actually having the feedback conversation. And then an easy way to remember it is the three different types are, tell the person or share with the person what they're doing well. So there's a particular framework. I don't know if we're allowed to use the language in your podcast, Mick, but think of it as a not very nice sandwich, where the old framework was, start with something positive, say what you want to say, but you're too scared to say it and then suck up to them with something positive at the end. So let's not do that anymore. But all the research that I looked at says, Yes, start with something I don't even like, just going back to language, Mick, I don't even like positive, negative feedback. And I'll quickly share why. Well, first of all, it's not you as the feedback offer. It's not you deciding if the feedback was positive or negative, negative. It's actually the person who's receiving the feedback that decides that. So I never say positive. I say is the feedback useful for the person receiving it? Because how do you decide if feedback is positive? Is it positive? Because it was delivered in a way that you like, and you felt great, but you couldn't do anything with it. So then it's not really positive, not very useful. Or you might feel, have felt really uncomfortable receiving the feedback, but it was the most useful golden feedback you've ever received. So do you say that's positive or negative? So I stick with, is it useful or not useful? So back to acknowledgement, feedback. The very first one you start with, this is what you're doing well, and you're acknowledging the things. You know. It could be that you're acknowledging the outcomes their performance, but it's more than that. It's acknowledging the way they're showing up. So they're showing up and they're patient, or they're calm, or they're bringing humor to the group, or, you know, you're acknowledging things like, you know, we've had three general managers in the last six months, or we've just had a restructure, or there's been a fire or a flood, or blah, blah, blah. That's super important that you start with. This is what you're doing really well, and but it can't be fake so we're not going to do fakey, fakey stuff. And so you tell them what they're doing really well, then you follow with evaluation feedback. So we've got acknowledgement, evaluation and guidance. Acknowledgement, this is what you're doing really well. Evaluation is this is how you're going, and this is the important bit, according to expectations, followed by guidance. This is how you can do even better. So if we go back to evaluation, you are in the role now of qualified assessor. This is you the feedback. Person offering the feedback. You're in the warm up conversation. Have a conversation about I'm going to be offering you three different types of feedback. There. Are the three different types. It's the evaluation, feedback, the middle one that most people struggle with. And it goes like this, I'm going to be offering you feedback on these expectations that are linked to your task. I'm going to be letting you know how you're going. So for someone who's been in this role for six months we would expect their performance to be here. I'm going to be letting you know whether you're below the expectation, meeting expectation, above expectation, but you wouldn't use those words. I'm going to be letting you know how you go now, for someone who's new, they go, Oh, thank you so much. Great. I really want to know how I'm going according to the expectations. The most important thing, I reckon here, this is the one evaluation, feedback is the one that most people struggle with offering. They don't talk about it in the warm up. So they don't talk about these are the things we're going to be measuring. And it could be, as I said before, role description, but it could also be, you know, a team charter or code of conduct, and then they don't talk about how we're going to measure it. So everyone's got different ways of measuring. So some people, it's the exceeds, meets, does not meet. For other people, it's, you know, it's different measures. It doesn't matter what measurement you use, but in the warm up, talk about that so that then there's no surprises. So then in your you know, your everyday feedback conversations, you start with, this is what you're doing. Well, this is how you're going, and then how you can do even better. Mick, did you have any questions around that evaluation? One, because that's the one most people struggle with.

Mick Spiers: 47:23

I really like it. I'll just reflect on it and just say, yeah, it could be against the role description, or it could be against Team values or the values of the organization. This is really about, instead of having values that are on the office wall plaque that no one ever refers to, it's like, All right, here's some feedback in our organization, we pride ourselves on our collaborative behaviors. I'm giving you some feedback today on how you are being collaborative or non collaborative, and and are you meeting expectations of collaboration or not non collaboration. That was my takeaway from that. I i really like it and the clarity of expectation. I'm going to share another story with you. I feel that a lot of people are going home from work at the end of the day scratching their head, going, did I meet expectations today or not? And if those conversations are not having, they're going to have anxiety about, well, I don't know. I don't know, did I have a good day at work day or not? I don't know. I don't know. So having that clarity of expectation and then the measurements against the expectation out there, I think, is something that we can all take away. Really good.

Sue Anderson: 48:29

Yeah, so you've got acknowledgement, you're in the role of cheerleader, you know, this is what you're doing. Well, then you've got evaluation, you are in the role of qualified assessor. So just if you're listening, just think, how comfortable Am I in that role of qualified assessor, and then you've got guidance feedback, you're in the role of coach, mentor. Just one last thing on the evaluation, because that's the one when I run workshops, that's the one that most people are like. This is where I I struggle. So a couple of things when I run workshops for engineers. Because I ask people, which go and stand, you know, which one do you feel most comfortable offering? Is it? This is what you're doing really well. This is how you're going, or this is how you can do better. And most people will go to cheerleader. This is, you know, I'm comfortable in the role of cheerleader. Most people, yeah, when I did the research, that's actually rated the least useful to receive, which is interesting. So let's say 60% of the room will go over to cheerleader. 40% will go to guidance because they love they'll say, I love growing and developing my team. And you know, they love that role of coach mentor, which leaves zero people standing at the evaluation. But when I run workshops, feedback, fitness workshops for engineers, about 40% of them go to the evaluation, feedback, and so I'm curious. I'm like, Wow, this never happens. What's going on? And they I say, what is it about this one? And they say, well, it's black and white, you know, I've got numbers, I've got measurements. It's, there's no human fluffy stuff, was what one of them said. So if it helps link evaluation, feedback with a number a measurement. And how do you do that when it's, you know, a soft, you know, rational is rolling our eyes every time Dave speaks. So how you do that is you'd say, hey, rational, is it okay if I offer you some feedback about what I'm observing in our team meetings? Because I know being a team player is really important to you, that okay? And rational says, yeah. And then you stick with numbers what I observe. Observed in our in our last team meeting this morning, was three times when Dave spoke, I observed you rolling your eyes, and then I I'd be quiet, because I'm just bringing it into rationalist awareness for her to make meaning of it. Now she might go, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize I was doing that. Or she might go, yeah, because blah blah, blah, blah. And so this is now the part that I reckon it's important, where you can bring it back to numbers. You know, rational. We've got our team charter, or our values. The expectation of team members is that we would have zero. Eye rolling. I observe you with three, three other way around, who would have zero I observe with. And so that's a way to bring back. You know, how to, how do I take this fluffy behavior, attitude stuff and turn it into a number? The expectation is it would be zero. I observe three. And then again, you you zip your lip. It's really hard for leaders allow people time to process because, especially if they're armed up, yeah. So that was just a quick example. So that evaluation one, if you can make friends with that one, and if you're listening, going, Oh, that's the one that I'm not very good at. Bring it back to a measurement, a number, and talk about, talk about that in your warm up. I'm going to be offering, yeah, these three different types, the evaluation one, this is what I'm evaluating. This is what you will be evaluated against. And these are the measurements in the warm up, before you've offered any feedback at all.

Mick Spiers: 52:13

Really good. So I like that a lot. The other thing I'm picking up as a thread as we go along, every time you give an example about how specific you are, tell us about the role of being specific and clear in the feedback.

Sue Anderson: 52:26

I believe now this is just my belief that most people, not everyone, but most people, process information coming in by making a movie of it. Because they're taking the stimulus coming in through their ears, their eyes, and they're recreating it and making a movie of it. So if you're saying something very fluffy, for example, the CEO says to you, you just need to be more visible in our leadership meetings. It's really hard to make a movie of that. And if you can't make a movie and picture yourself doing it, it's hard to picture yourself in the future doing that behavior, but also repeating that behavior. So if you think about growth mindset, so the work of Professor Carol Dweck, if you can't be specific enough to make a movie of it, how are you going to repeat that in the future? So if you can't make a movie of good job like, well, what? What What specifically did I do well that I can repeat in the future? So that's where you can bring it back to, I saw, this is what I observed, I heard, and it's got to be things that they can make a movie of. It's within their control, and it's repeatable. So especially when it's that behavior that like you were talking about before, Mick, that you do want them to see again. Help them make a movie of it. I saw and heard the way you welcomed in the customer. I heard the way you asked them three questions about them. They can make a movie of that. They can repeat that, and it's within their control, fluffy feedback. It's just what happens is, if you haven't had a warm up conversation, and then someone says, Hey, Mick, you just really need to step into your leadership more. What happens is, Mick, what am I going to do with that? And so you'll go home, Mick, and if your belief about feedback, it means I've done something wrong, you'll be like, Oh my god, you'll be going back over every thing that you've done in the past. You'll go home that night and you'll be wondering, lying awake, going, What did she mean? Step into does she think that I'm not, and there's no there's nothing to do with it, which links nicely into the importance of the cool down conversation.

Mick Spiers: 54:34

Alright, so let me quickly reflect on that and then go to the cool down. What I'm picking up with this on the specific is, the more specific it is, the more believable it's going to be, the more repeatable it's going to be, the more actionable it's going to be. Yeah, really good. I love it. So let's talk about the cooldown.

Sue Anderson: 54:52

Okay, if someone so, let's say you're offering the feedback. It's kind of like, so I live in, I live just out of Ballarat. So our our phone reception. This is going to sound weird, but it'll make sense in a minute. Our phone reception isn't that great. Our signal drops out a lot. So have you ever had a time where you've phoned someone and it's dropped out, you've lost the connection, so you ring them back, and then they ring you back. Now it's engaged, then you don't ring back, and now no one's ringing in. So it's an easy metaphor to say, if you've offered the feedback, you're responsible for the cool down. The cool down is all about psychological safety. It's about making sure that the person has given the meaning that's useful to your feedback. Given that a. Lot of people go, Oh, my God, it means I've done something wrong, if your intention is to, you know, help the person develop their skill or whatever. So it's really simple. It's all about recovery. It goes like this, one minute, one day and one week, you call them back, not literally, but going back to the phone metaphor. So one minute later. So you've just offered someone rational feedback that she's that you've observed her rolling her eyes the three times that Dave spoke. So you want to know at the end of that conversation, that's the one minute later, what meaning Has she given to your feedback? So that's when you would ask a question, like, you know, what do you think about that? What are your thoughts on that? And so what you're asking is for them to clarify the meaning they've given to the feedback. Because you could offer the feedback and they could make it mean something else, something different, to the meaning that you had in mind. So you're checking in with them. What, what have you understood about? You wouldn't use that. I think that's a bit condescending. But in In essence, what do you understand about the feedback I've just offered you? You're checking in with them, making sure they're okay. Now, most people will go, Yep, good, great. Because they just, if you haven't done a warm up, they just want to end that feedback conversation. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. So they then go home, or they walk over to their friend Michelle, and they maybe talk. They've got, they've received your feedback. They've got time now to process and and think about it. They maybe had time to implement it. Maybe not. So then you check in, check in, either the one day later, it could be that afternoon, it could be the next day, it could be two days, but they've now had time to process and think about it. So if they've had a fear response, hopefully they're out of that. This is the time when you call them back, you check in, and you go, Hey, rational. Now you've had time to think about our conversation from yesterday. How's it sitting with you? If they're kinesthetic or what? What what do you think about it? This is really important. So I was a leader in state government, like, 25 years ago, I didn't have a feedback fitness framework. I wish I had. But one day, I remember, I offered someone in my team feedback, and I remember thinking that went really well. That went really well. You know, I delivered it really well. Came back into work the next day, showing my age. We didn't have email at home then, and there was an email from this person saying that I had that they felt that I had personally attacked them. I was absolutely horrified. I thought the feedback conversation had gone really well. So that's that one day that you go back and you say, now you've had time to think about it. You know, what are your thoughts? Do you have any questions? Do you need any support? And that one, do you have any questions, is a good one. I had a funny situation where the CEO said to a leader that I was coaching, you just need to or maybe it was that you just need to be more visible. Oh no, it was about his listening. So the CEO said, you know, you need to listen more. I coach that person the next day who received that feedback, and that person said to me, what do you think the CEO meant? And I'm like, I don't know. Could you go back and ask. And he's like, no Sue. It was about listening. I can't go back and ask. What did we mean? And I'm like, oh, okay, so you've got the the one minute, straight away, the one day, and let's go, but let's be real. Here. A lot of people, if they're not doing the warm up, they're worried about off damage the relationship. So the one day is, are they avoiding me? They hate me. They coming back saying, you know, that was great. And then the one week, it doesn't have to be one week later, but the one week is okay. Now you've had time to implement the feedback. Let's keep this conversation going. Did you implement it? How'd it go? Oh, it went, well, let's celebrate next steps if you didn't implement it, what got in the way? How can I help so that you can implement it? Or it wasn't implemented? What happened? Oh, well, that completely changed. Because what some some leaders have shared with me, they get annoyed I offer this feedback and they don't implement but the leader doesn't go back and say, what were the reasons that it wasn't implemented? Because there could be a very good reason, especially if you're in an industry where it changes so quickly. So it's a way to keep that feedback conversation going, because it's always next steps, or, okay, you've implemented that bit. Let's talk about feedback on the implementation. So keep it going. That's why I refer to it as a series of conversations. Yeah. So that's, that's the warm up, the workout, the cool down. So imagine this. You've had, you're a leader, you've had no you've done no warm up conversation. You don't offer any acknowledge. Feedback. You let people know how they're going, you don't offer any how they can do better, and you don't do a cool down. That's where feedback goes really pear shaped, and that happens.

Mick Spiers: 1:00:53

Really good, Sue. I want to reflect a little bit on the cool down. I think it's really important. I was picking up three things. I want to play it back to you and see what you think. So the first one in that cool down we're also checking common understanding of what we just discussed is the person taking away what I'm taking away from the conversation to avoid the Treaty of Waitangi. This is a New Zealand reference, apologies, but the Treaty of Waitangi was signed more than 140 years ago between white settlers and the Maori people of New Zealand, and for 140 years, people have argued about what it actually meant, right? So are you walking away from the conversation with the same understanding? And this is the problem with the sandwich, by the way, to come back to that you're leaving it up to them as to, what are they taking away? Are they taking away the bread, or they're taking away the meat of the conversation. So if you're not checking in, you may be walking away from the same conversation with a different understanding of what just happened. The second was the emotional layer, how are they feeling of about the conversation, the psychological safety, etc. The third, which is a bit meta, did the feedback cycle work? So you're actually practicing getting better at feedback during the cool down by going, Okay, what worked well in that feedback that I gave you, what worked well, not just about the feedback, but about how I gave you the feedback, or how I offered the feedback. What worked well, so that when we have our continual conversations, the next one will be even better, because we're getting better at feedback every time we go. So that were the three layers being, you know, checking in, did we have the same understanding, checking in on the emotion and the psychological health of the person? And the third, how did the feedback go? How does that sit with you?

Sue Anderson: 1:02:36

Yeah, and that's, that's a great summary. Thanks, Mick, and you're being a role model. Then, of I'm open to feedback. Give me feedback on my feedback. Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah. And so in the warm up, if you're the leader, and you know you're asking them their beliefs and how do they like to receive it, it'd be a great opportunity to say, hey, feedback goes both ways. If you've got some feedback from me, but again, be really clear on your scope on my leadership style, or blah, blah, blah, how I like to receive feedback is this, so you make it really easy for them to offer you feedback. Because, let's be honest, people feel pretty uncomfortable telling their boss how to do their job. So it's a if you can set up that safety where you know a lot of feedback from you as well. I'm open to it, and then for you, then to action that by in the cool down, saying, how, how do I go? You don't have to do it every time. So just wanted to clarify one more thing that comes up with this the framework, because it's the warm up, the workout and the cool down. When sometimes I've been offering workshops. Leaders have gone, oh my god, Sue we don't have time to do a warm up workout and a cool down. And I say, No, no, you only have to do the warm up once. That's the bigger conversation that sets you up for the rest of the year. So one, maybe 45 to one hour once a year. I prefer one on one, because you can, you get to understand each person's beliefs the way they like. You can tailor it to the way they like to receive feedback. You can use real examples. You can talk about, you know, I'm going to be offering you feedback on this particular project. You can talk about things like, what will we do if we don't agree on the feedback? What will we do if one of us arm is up? What will we do if one of us experiences emotion around this feedback? So that warm up is just once a year. You don't have to also do the three different types. So the workout remembers, this is what you're doing. Well, this is how you can improve, and this is, this is what you're doing. Well, this is how you're going, and this is how you can improve. You don't have to do those three every time, but the research was very clear, do not offer evaluation feedback on its own ever. So the evaluation is, this is how you're going, according to expectations. If you're going to offer acknowledgement, if you're going to offer evaluation feedback, offer acknowledgement feedback. You don't have to do all three. You could just 80% of the time, just do acknowledgement feedback. I saw the way you encouraged Tina to speak up in our team meeting. That's acknowledgement feedback. So you don't, don't feel like, Oh my God, I've gotta do this big warm up workout. Cool down every time you don't and don't. Please don't think you've gotta offer the three different types of feedback every time that you know that in the moment, feedback you don't. But a little tip, never offer the middle one, evaluation, feedback on its own. It's not a good idea. Can I tell? One more story. I worked with one team, and I went to the leader, and I asked her, what's going on. And she said, Oh, God, this team, I offer them feedback all the time, and they don't listen. And I went separately to the team, and I said, what's going on? And they said, Oh, we asked her for feedback all the time. She doesn't give us any. And I'm like, Okay, there's some mismatch happening here. So what was happening? Went back to leader. I said, Tell me more about your feedback conversations. And she said, Oh, I'm always telling them, good job. Great work going really well. Went back to the team, what's going on? They said there's a restructure coming. We don't want to just hear good job, great work. We want to know how we're going. We want to know how where we stand, and we want to know how we can do better. She's not providing that feedback. So that's just a quick example of make sure that you are offering the three different types, and if you're the receiver, do you have permission from yourself to ask for the three different types?

Mick Spiers: 1:06:45

Yeah, really good.

Sue Anderson: 1:06:46

Yeah. Don't just go to your leader and say, Can you give me some feedback?

Mick Spiers: 1:06:50

Be more specific.

Sue Anderson: 1:06:51

Yeah, yeah, feedback on what, what, using what measurement and the three different types of feedback.

Mick Spiers: 1:06:58

Alright? So absolutely wonderful. I love that story to finish, and that really nails it. I'm going to say so quick summary, so we have a warm up, our workout, our cool down. The warm up is all about setting expectations, about having conversations about feedback, about our beliefs about feedback, about offering feedback, receiving feedback. Where do we sit? About tailoring, about understanding intentions of the feedback and having the permission to off offer the feedback. And in the workout, the three types, the acknowledgement, what are they doing? Well, the evaluation against expectation and the guidance on where they could do better, and then the cool down in the moment, within the first minute, after a day or so, after a week or so checking in that the that you've had a common understanding of what the feedback was, how are they doing, emotionally from the feedback, and how is the feedback itself? Landy? That's it's really a powerful framework. So thank you so much for sharing it with us. Today. I'd like to take us now to our Rapid Round. So these are the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. First of all, what's the one thing you know now? Sue Anderson, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Sue Anderson: 1:08:08

Okay, I wish I knew that back then. I reckon my worth, my esteem, was linked to my performance. So I wish now I knew that my worth is a given, just because I'm human, just because I'm here, and you don't get your worth and your value through what you do. They're very, very separate, and this links beautifully into feedback. Feedback is about your decisions, your behaviors, your actions. It's not about your worth as a person. And the reason I say that I used to care so much about, you know, getting everything perfect and and what would people think and making mistakes. And I think that really held me back in my 20s. Now that I'm 52, I'm like, No, let's just do it and we'll see how it goes. And if I muck it up and muck it up, I'll learn from it.

Mick Spiers: 1:09:00

Yeah, well done, Sue. I love it. What's your favorite book?

Sue Anderson: 1:09:04

I've got so many favorite books. It's such a hard question. I would say, in the last 12 months, my favorite book has been Brene Brown's book, Atlas of the heart. It's all about emotions. What I love about it is she has and she's a researcher. She doesn't just make stuff up. She's defined emotions so beautifully. So I'm a nerd. I summarize the book. I summarized all the emotions, but her beautiful definitions of them. I use them with my coaching clients and in the workshops that I run. Just the more that we can understand label and name emotions, the more choice we have around them. Just very, very powerful, very empowering book. Love it.

Mick Spiers: 1:09:49

Alright? Great recommendation. Thank you. So what's your favorite quote?

Sue Anderson: 1:09:52

Ah, again, so many. I like Victor Frankel, between stimulus and response, there is a space, and in that space you have the choice. Again. It's the theme here, I guess, is choice, that you can make anything mean anything, and the stimulus could be feedback. It could be something else, but you have the power to choose how you respond to it by what you think about it, the meaning you give to it, how you feel about it, and then what you say and do. So again, that empowerment.

Mick Spiers: 1:10:20

That's where freedom lives. That's where freedom lives. Freedom lives in our choice and our the way that we choose to interpret events and how we respond to any stimulus. I absolutely love it. And finally, Sue. There's going to be people that are really intrigued about this. Feedback is something that people struggle with. How do people find you? They'd like to know more about your work, your teachings, your mediation, your sessions that you can do for organizations.

Sue Anderson: 1:10:47

Yeah, thanks. Mick, so it's just my website is sueanderson.com.au, otherwise, LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn, and I have, like, weekly just little mini master classes. They're all advertised on LinkedIn. We take a tiny little topic and talk about feedback fitness every week, different topic. So, yeah, they can find me there.

Mick Spiers: 1:11:15

Wonderful, Sue. And I'll say again about the book. I'm holding it up for people watching the video podcast. The book is amazing. It's full of great questions that can help with that self assessment about your offering and receiving a feedback. And then it's got the framework in there, and when you read it, this conversation that Sue and I have just had, will will real crystal really crystallize for you? So thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with us today on a very important topic. Thank you, Sue.

Sue Anderson: 1:11:43

Oh, thank you, Mick, for the opportunity.

Mick Spiers: 1:11:45

What a powerful conversation with Sue Anderson. I hope you're walking away with a new perspective on feedback and a solid framework to put it into action. In the next episode, I'll be sharing my own reflections and my own experiences with feedback which have not all been good, and sharing my own takeaways and some actionable steps to implement Sue's framework in your own teams. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.