234. From the Frontlines: An Inside Look at the Cronulla Race Riots with Carl Scully and Mark Goodwin - Part 2

Unlock the secrets to effective crisis management and leadership with insights from Carl Scully and Mark Goodwin as they recount their experiences during the 2005 Cronulla riots. This episode promises to equip you with valuable lessons on strategic planning, decision-making under pressure, and the art of adaptive leadership. Dive into the intricacies of police command structures and discover how swift, informed decisions can avert chaos and restore order.

Carl and Mark shed light on leading in high-stress environments, where balancing autocratic and democratic styles is key to empowering those on the front lines. Their stories emphasise the importance of nurturing future leaders and fostering a work culture prioritising psychological safety and collaboration. As they share their personal journey, you'll gain perspective on the emotional toll of public service, the challenges of media scrutiny, and the personal sacrifices inherent in leadership roles.

Reflecting on their careers, Carl and Mark offer candid insights into the delicate balance between professional obligations and personal life. They share thought-provoking quotes and favourite literary works that have shaped their approach to leadership. This episode is a homage to the resilience and dedication required in public service, inviting listeners to join the Leadership Project in a journey of growth, learning, and leadership excellence.

🌐 Connect with Carl:
• Website: CarlScully.com.au
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hon-carl-scully
• Email: carl@carlscully.com.au

📚 You can purchase Carl and Mark’s book on his website: https://carlscully.com.au/book-the-cronulla-riots/

Don't miss the Melbourne launch of THE CRONULLA RIOTS with Carl Scully, Mark Goodwin, and Tony Thomas! 🎉
📅 Date: Tue 18 Feb 2025 6:00 PM - 8:00 PM AEDT
📍 Location: Il Gambero, 166 Lygon St, Carlton VIC 3053
Get your tickets now 👉 https://www.tickettailor.com/events/connorcourtpublishing/1532745

Exploring Workplace Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
Learn the why, what and how of fostering a mentally healthy workplace with Dr Bill Howatt

Chapters

• 0:01 Lessons in Leadership
• 8:34 Leadership in High-Stress Environments
• 16:33 Leadership Lessons in Crisis Management
• 23:28 [Ad] Exploring Workplace Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
• 24:18 (Cont.) Leadership Lessons in Crisis Management
• 29:13 Reflections on Leadership and Loss
• 36:58 Leadership Reflections and Family Balance
• 45:00 Acknowledgements and Invitation to Subscribe

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

Welcome to part two of this two part series with Carl Scully and Mark Goodwin. If you haven't yet caught part one, I strongly recommend that you go back and listen to it now so that you can understand what really happened on the day of the Coronavirus. Rights of 2005 in today's part, we're going to uncover the deeper leadership lessons that both Carl and Mark took from these events, and they're both going to openly and transparently share with us the impact that these events had on their careers and on their families. All right, so now I want to unpack your leadership on the day here for a moment, Carl and Mark, and I'm going to say, first of all, congratulations on your leadership. This could have been a whole heap worse if there wasn't for the actions that you took. Well, what were some of the key decision points that the two of you had to make on the spot?

Carl Scully: 1:00

I think the best place would be Mark, because he gave exemplary preparatory performance leading up and the escalation plans he put in place. I guess where I came in was after that. So I needed to be satisfied. So as the Minister responsible to the community, I needed to be satisfied the police commander was doing as we would expect him to do. He absolutely was. But then after it looked like it was all going to get out of hand, that's where I certainly but I'll have to use the word stepped in, because there was no need to step in a case of Mark. But certainly his superiors weren't quite doing what I expected them to do. And I'll talk about that after Mark sets out what he did. He showed incredible leadership and skill in doing what needed to be done.

Mick Spiers: 1:52

Yeah. Thanks, Carl, So Mark, what were some of the key decision points for you that you remember?

Mark Goodwin: 1:57

I think it's probably important to set a bit of a background of how it works, leadership in the policing organization. So on the day Coronavirus, certainly, in any police operation really, there's three levels of police command, and it's not about an individual, really, to their team. Always you hear that, but it is actual truth. So at a strategic level, which was me. So I'm in charge of planning, logistics, resourcing, strategy, providing the equipment, briefings, media, those sort of big ticket items, setting out the expectations to the police, and certainly, as that dynamically changes, perhaps providing resources to other areas, opening up new command centers as this grew on numerous fronts in the revenge attacks and so forth. So big role, and I'll talk a bit more about me as a in a minute. So second down the rung then is the actual operational commander. So Coronavirus, that's a superintendent level in the police, which is would normally be like a local area commander sort of level. So that person is a hands on operational commander, so he's in a command post issuing orders from to the actual police on the ground, seeing that the higher level Strategic Commanders intent is being implemented. So like, literally close this street, move resources there. There's an assault taking place at the railway station. They want team ABC to go there. Now those sorts of things. Get the helicopter over here, provide me imagery, so forth. So I was making those operational decisions on McGregor, sorry, from a command person. Then the third tier is at a tactical level. So strategic, Operation link, tactical, technical, tactical leaders are actually on the ground. So they're usually sergeants of police, and they're there with their teams, so they're implementing what they're told from the operational commander. But they also they're a team leader, so they're, they're in charge of that team on the ground, so they're giving directions and support. And certainly we want, we need to go there. They're the most important front line, really, command situation. So all those three levels were in place on the day. Now, as that situation ruin those revenge attacks, we had to open up the Sydney police operations center, which is a big concrete bunker in the city, and it's used for mega or size operations where there's, say, a climate control conference or or E visits, or the US president comes out sort of thing. So that's a big operational center that was activated, and I took command from in there. So we had, I had to recall, and thank goodness, in the planning for this, we put in a place a escalation plan in the event that the daytime events escalated into the evening and revenge attacks started. So we foresaw that. That is a possibility, and thank goodness that escalation plans for your place. So I recall to Judy immediately after we saw the evening news and the way it had been portrayed. It didn't have to be in Nostradamus to know what was coming. So I then caught recall to Judy near his other opera. Operational commander. So I would retain strategic command over the whole situation from that concrete bunker in the city, and then as the event unfolded over those numerous days, and in fact, weeks, operational commanders would start command posts in areas in the western suburbs, in rouba area in the St George area in the southern Shire, so that all those operational commanders then are reporting back to the head strategic commander. So it became so large and problematic. I mean, I've never seen anything like and I don't think the New South Wales Police have ever dealt with anything as large since, for instance, the following weekend, we had so much threat and so much extreme intelligence of things that were going to occur. And just quickly, the some of those things that there was going to be a drive by shooting at the northeast Hotel, which is the drinking spot for young people at Cronulla, and that was going to involve Uzi submachine guns. And we actually interviewed a person in the book who actually saw a bootload of Uzi submachine guns outside the mosque. And that was dealt with by very capably, by the way, by some of the Lebanese elders and statesmen that were extremely assistance to the police on the day anyway. And then also, there was going to be a hand grenade thrown into the front beer garden, and they would speed off. That was an undercover operation around that week. And that hand grenade was taken off the streets, you know, or hey, yeah, your hand grenade was taken off the street so it couldn't be purchased. You know, you undercover sting. People were arrested. There was other search warrants done, which were other targets, which we believed that were potential sources of other hand grenades and guns were seized. So all this was ticking away in the background, major operation, so such to a point where there was a in consultation with Carl, the Police Minister, the level of threat was so high to extreme. Was so extreme that there was a special recall of the New South Wales parliament. They'd finished for the year in recess, and we'll have to congratulate the government today. It was remarkable that within four days of the Coronavirus we were dealing with. We had new powers in legislation, because we literally needed to close down, lock down, entire suburbs from wool long to Newcastle. So the following weekend, there was an operation of 2000 police that grew from a couple of 100 on the beach. The following week, in 2000 police in seven zones from Newcastle to woolwo. It was an exhausting time Mick, and providing the logistics for that and the resources for it on an ongoing basis was extremely difficult task like we had, thank goodness a few years prior with Sydney, had the 2000 Olympics, and we were New South Wales. Police were the security for that, for those Olympics, and we had a plan to put the entire state into a mode where we could free up resources and logistics. So literally, we copied off that plan, thank goodness that it occurred. And we put the entire New South Wales State into this Olympic mode, I'll call it, where that freed up resources and court was canceled and leave was canceled, so no cops. Went on holidays, at Christmas, and we brought in literally hundreds and hundreds of police from regional, country areas. So there's all the logistics of housing them and feeding them and so. So it was a huge, big operation, so the largest I've ever experienced. It became very problematic.

Mick Spiers: 8:18

So the first thing I'd like to say there, Mark, thank you. The speed and the precision of the execution of those plans absolutely averted. It getting much, much worse. I've got two more questions for you, Mark, and then I want to go to Carl on what you were saying before. So for most of us listening to this show, Mark, we we're not in the police force, we're not in the Defense Force. We're not in these Field of Fire situations. And we talk about the definition of leadership being the ability to inspire people into meaningful action around some kind of worthy cause because they want to do it, not because they were told to do it. And for us, it's really benign. It's boardroom stuff. It's, yeah, it's impactful, but it's benign, like it's we're not talking about putting people in the line of fire. How's it different to inspire a police force who know that they might be walking into something that could be a tinder box?

Mark Goodwin: 9:14

Yeah. Look, cops are a different sort of breed, from the minute they strap on their gun belt and leave the academy, and they enter the big, wide world they've seen in the worst of human behavior. And they've constantly dealt with everything from mental issues, drug addicted people, domestic violence and child abuse and stuff. And then I guess these kids come out of the academy and they're just thrown in the deep and so they're very inspired by knowledgeable leaders, people that was two and I would go back, if I had my time, back in the police, and I would put far more effort into leadership development. I was a mentor for the leadership development program within the New South Wales Police, and I have been complimented by many police and senior police six. Left actually, which is a nice thing to hear, but it's a different sort of world. You can be a total autocratic leader and a Democratic leader in the same day, and I'll give you an exact example of that. So if you pull up at a crew em scene, and there's It is literally an S flight. There's blood guts and people dead and and witnesses that need to be non contaminated with their cross talking, and there needs to be facets. So please, expect a leader to pull up there, and let's not have a 10 hour meeting, a democratic meeting about what we need to be done here. They expect the experienced leader to pull up there and say, right. Constable a, block the road. Constable B, get the crime scene tape about Council. C, separate those witnesses. Constable D, did. He's back in a very autocratic fashion, and they will accept that, and they expect that later on that same day, once the dust has settled and you're back at the police station with the detective in the detective's office, you would sit there as a leader and go right. Okay, so let's go around the table and constable a, tell us what you know, what you think, and how's your investigation going, and then just guide the conversation. Constable B, Consul C, and what do you think, and have every single person from the most junior person in the room contribute to that, the direction of that investigation. And and I've found, look, I have honestly found in Australia, particularly, but also inside, inside more militaristic type organizations like police and the military. I'm assuming people love to chop their heads off tall poppies. And I've got a bit of a theory that I and I have seen this over and over again, where, if you see the youngest, sometimes a very young in inexperienced police officer might come forward and go, Oh, Boss, look, I've seen something here that I don't think is right. I wanted to suggest something. And normally the other look, seriously, the rest of the room. Ah, sharp idiot. Look at the rank on my shoulder. And I'm a sergeant. You close them down, cut them off. And I'd like, and I think this is what makes a good lead. Let's listen to this person so but because, to me, that was the first sign of a potential future, good leader, that they've actually got the guts to stand out from the crowd and say, Hey, there's a problem, and from there to the next level you've got to mentor and develop those people. Is that the next level is, Hey, boss, there's a problem. I've had a think about it, and here's a number of solutions, but they still don't think they've got the either experience or authority to actually make a decision. So that's the next level. And the next level after that is, Hey boss, there's a problem. I thought about these solutions, and I think this is the best one. That's the next level. And you've ultimately got to get people to the point whereas, Hey, boss, there was a problem, and I thought you needed to know about so there's either. But I see there's these people emerging, and I think that's a good leadership lesson. As I said, you read autocratic and democratic and so forth. And as I said, People chopping their heads off tour poppies in organizations. It's quite unjust. There you someone's coming out stick it. Had the guts to stick their head up above the poppy field and speak and say something that they think is wrong, or come up with a suggestion. There's your potential future leader right there, and there's the one you need to grab and mentor.

Mick Spiers: 13:15

Yeah, good Mark, what I'm hearing there is a lot of situational leadership, adaptive leadership, Mick or borderline micromanagement when the situation demands it, and then inclusive leadership, reflective leadership, psychological safety when you need that. So that's what I'm hearing. And then you're seeing the others, the ones that have the critical thinking skills and also the courage to speak up at the right time, are going to be the future leaders. I like that you've somewhat answered my second question as we're going along, which was going to be about delegation and empowerment. Let's go with that. So with the three layers that you spoke about before, in the command structure during, I'm going to say borderline crisis situation, how does the delegation and empowerment work? So that the people that are closest to the action can make the decision based on what they're seeing?

Mark Goodwin: 14:09

Delegation is a funny thing, like in a extremely risk crisis situation like that, it's very hard to let go if you believe you are actually the most experienced person to deal with that situation. And then it comes an hour of the night where you got to go, good night, Bill, Hello, Bob, you're in charge now. And go home and go to bed and look, I think it is in the preparation of people, I think in hindsight, but because this became such a large operation, it went over for such a long period of time, that sort of turn, if you like, of commanders coming through the police operations center on various shifts to cover a 24 hour basis. What we found was, is that some of those people that had never walked in that center before, they'll come from regional areas. The next minute, they're in charge of command, and it's like, Hello Bob, good night, Bill. I'm off duty now. See you're in. Charge, and if he will, I've never actually been in his command center, so I think in in hindsight, certainly more effort, or if I had a chance to rewind, like I would put more effort into mentoring people. So I was in charge of, say, that same year, for instance, I was in charge of a world climate control conference, and I was in charge of Condoleezza Rice, the US president of state, came to Australia. And I was in charge of a queen, the Her Majesty the Queen came to Australia. So I was in charge of security operations, all those sort of things. In hindsight, I should have bought in and mentored another person to work with me, to watch and learn and hand over the reins to so that in a situation like these revenge attacks that we experience, you do have the confidence to hand over your full delegation to those people, because it's a little bit difficult if they haven't, as I said, ever walked into the operation?

Mick Spiers: 15:56

Yeah. Yeah. Really good. All right. Thanks, Mark, now coming back to you, Carl, was something interesting you said just before the word step in when you're as the Police Minister at this point, how are you making decisions about when to step in and when to step back?

Carl Scully: 16:12

So firstly, the degree of confidence I had in a leader reporting to me was very important. And sometimes I gave a leader a lot of rope because I was confident that they knew what they were doing, but they had it covered. Mark Goodwin was one of those leaders in other times, in other portfolios, sometimes I wasn't so confident, and it occurred here, not for any issue I had with Mark Goodwin, but I was actually concerned the senior of the police at Commissioner level were not treating it seriously enough, so I stepped in and I issued a serious and intended threat to the commissioner, because I asked him what The resources were going to be applied to the following weekend. Vis the range attacks, he said, 600 police. And I said, that is so woefully inadequate. Do I need to ask the premier to call the Prime Minister to bring in soldiers? Because if you're not up to it, Ken, do we need soldiers as a direct consequence of that the 600 became 2000 police, and all of personnel that could be made available were and all the specialist commands of the New South Wales Police Force and all its resources. So I stepped in. And occasionally I had to take charge. I was not the commissioner, but for a short while I had to be to cajole him into treating it seriously. Mark Goodwin, I had absolute confidence that he was on top of the game and on top of his game, the other thing where I took a lead hand, when Mark Goodwin and the senior executive made it plain they needed the powers that was front and center. My job to help steer that. The Premier and I and the Attorney General steered that through no cabinet minute. By the way, we called a Cabinet meeting, and there were notes taken by the Secretary of the cabinet, and a bill was produced and passed four days after the Coronavirus. Now, why was that so important? And I had a lead role in that. It was important because the cops were locking down suburbs without power and and they were holding up vehicles and questioning people well, they needed the power so suddenly, suburbs were being locked down lawfully. Roadways were being closed lawfully. Liquor licenses were being put on hold. And more importantly, police were going on to public transport and checking people's phones, pulling cameras over and checking people's phones, and if there was any incitement, text messaging, phone, confiscated car, confiscated arrests made, people detained. Got to tell you. Mick, that went through like a bush fire and substantially led to the end of the event because we gave police power. So my job was to step in to make sure the senior executive were treating it seriously, that the police had the powers they needed and all the resources, and I did that to the best of my ability.

Mick Spiers: 19:35

Yeah. Yeah. Well done, Carl and well described. In unprecedented times, you need unprecedented actions, and that's what was done here. The danger, which I'm pleased to say, never happened. But the danger with unprecedented powers like that can be the misuse of power, the misappropriation of power. But that's not what I saw. I saw that the power was applied to the purpose that it was intended. It for and that's why we're 19 years on, and we're in a peaceful society. And it was addressed quickly,

Carl Scully: 20:07

Happy to talk about some of the broader leadership notions. You like the word inspire. Actually share this with you. Many years ago, I wrote down why I wanted to be Premier. I wrote a few pages, I reduced it to a page, to half a page, and eventually I reduced it to one word, inspire. And it's an important word, but it requires more unpacking than even I'd when I wanted to be head of government. Didn't quite get there. Requires a lot more unpacking than a lot of leadership theorists, except for yourself, of course, bring to the table. And what I mean by that is what motivates folks to feel inspired. So the inspiration that you give as a leader is a motivating vehicle to get them to act in accordance with what you think is best for the organization or for them, or to achieve a goal. But I found, from my leadership perspective, there are a few things that if I look back, I didn't I wasn't thinking about this. I was just doing what I needed to do to lead large organizations, and I self reflect, but I think some of the things I've just made a note poise without panic. That's what folks find inspiring in great conflict. If your leader has poise, patience and above all, no panic. That's the starting point of inspiring leadership, then providing a degree of self confidence in your followers, because they'll feel self confident. This guy's in charge. He's confident. He's got poise. He's dealing with this awful situation. And I think what I found across all the portfolios I worked in, fundamentally, people who are following you want to be guided. They want to be directed. They want to feel there's a pathway, and that the leader is clear about where they take the organization. And this is where I think the end product, some call it delegation. I have a simpler way. I think it's fundamentally important that a leader pulls down power and vests it into followers, so that they feel they can get the job done in the broad spectrum that the leader brings they find that inspiring, that the confidence is expressed by the leader in them. And why did I took one step further. I would then stand in front of the snipers. Some leaders empower the followers, and then, when it gets a bit difficult, start sacking or blame gaming or whatever. I never did that. It caused me a bit of damage. But I used to say to folks, this is the task I want done. I'm empowering you to do it, and if it blows up, I'll cop it. And that's the sort of leadership I brought to the table, empowering my people, giving them the powers to do the job, but above all, demonstrating poise, patience and no panic.

Mick Spiers: 24:09

I gotta tell you, Carl, you've just described a lot of the inspirational leaders that I remember like so I also remember the ones that weren't so inspiring and demotivated me, but the ones that I remember exactly that, and not always in the critical situations you're talking about. Carl, it can be just a heated boardroom meeting, and that leader that's able to stay there calm, listen to what everyone's saying and then summarize at the end of their meeting, and go, I'm hearing three things. Team, we need to do this and this. And everyone looks at them, goes, Yeah, because they stayed calm, they stayed poised, they didn't panic. They took in all of those different ideas that were being festered around the room, and were able to think with the clarity and courage to then go, this is what we need to do.

Carl Scully: 24:53

You've also reminded me two essential ingredients for great leadership, temperament and intelligence. You're going to be smart, not have the temperament, or you can have great temperament, but not deep smarts. You real smart to be a good leader, but you've also got to have great temperament. That's what I mean by poise, calm, resolve, but really smart. And that's the great thing I found about leadership, and I tried to bring it to the table, problem solving, constantly asking questions, understanding how to synthesize multiple problems at you all at once, and coming to some suggested solutions. That doesn't mean you don't work with teams and collaborate and delegate. And all that. But you know what? When you make the call, you're the guy making the call. It's not the team, it's not the delegated. You've got to make the call. And good leaders got to know how to solve problems.

Mick Spiers: 25:54

Yeah, well said. All right, really good summary, and it's a good way to bring us to a close as well, Carl, to have some of those leadership lessons for us all to take.

Carl Scully: 26:03

The book of Carl and Mick.

Mick Spiers: 26:04

Exactly, the book of it's a nut. This is another episode altogether, and it's your next book. There you go. Carl, I can't wait to read it. Now I want to bring us to a close. Now I do want to ask one more question, and then we will go into our Rapid Round looking back 19 years later, and by all accounts, this is a great success from both of you, would you have done anything different if you had your time again?

Carl Scully: 26:32

From my perspective, I don't regret what I did. I endeavored to ensure an injustice did not occur to Mark Goodwin. He'd not been properly consulted. He was about to be fried. Many of my colleagues in in down the track said, why'd you get involved? That was just cops belting cops. I said, Well, it wasn't just Mark Goodwin. Had done a sensational job. The commissioner sold an inquiry onto him and undertaken by a fellow Assistant Commissioner, and profoundly unfair and unnecessary and unwarranted findings I had to step in. What I might have done differently is I, if I look back, I should not have allowed, and it was announced while I was overseas, I should not have allowed an inquiry into police performance, and when it was announced, I should have found a way to cancel it. It was outrageous. It was a laudable performance. No one had ever called for an inquiry, not even the opposition, the media, anyone, because it was a phenomenal performance, and it was effectively a distraction for the commissioner, who was under fire for not arresting Lebanese Muslims because he said there was insufficient footage. There was footage, and I regard that as a distraction. So what I should have done was stepped in and said, Let's do what we did in the Macquarie fields, and have their Deputy Commissioner do an internal review. That's my regret. Do I regret getting involved in getting zapped because I was trying to make sure a fair process? No, I do all that again. Was outrageous. What happened to Mark Goodwin? Outrageous? What happened to a number of people who've outlined in the book and the police commissioner now should give them commendations for their performance, not one single individual citation, Mick, for police performance. And there's other instances on other operations where they're almost handed out like confetti at a wedding. But not here, nothing.

Mick Spiers: 28:37

I'm going to echo it back to you. Carl, I can say I remember very clearly, and you used the word premier before everyone thought that you were going to be the next Premier. There's there's no doubt about that. You probably don't want to hear that now, but that's how I saw it. Right. What is the big injustice here? Is everything you described here, the two of you took actions that prevented this thing from completely getting out of hand, and somehow we know.

Carl Scully: 29:03

Yesterday, I guess Mick. Mark and I were public servants, senior publics, devoted to the community and doing our job well. We think we did done good job. We didn't expect a thank you, but we didn't expect to lose our careers. Not being thanked is often the lot of a public servant.

Mick Spiers: 29:27

Yeah.

Carl Scully: 29:27

That's fine, but maybe we could have been criticized a bit, but both to have careers we loved and intended to do for years on being ended, it's now I can look back and say, Well, it's a bit ironic, despite this hugely fantastic performance, and I can pat myself on the back, we both got sacked effectively.

Mick Spiers: 29:48

Yeah, to be crazy ended. Careers ended essentially. Yeah, right.

Carl Scully: 29:52

To be so sort of weird ending to a pretty good job.

Mick Spiers: 29:58

Yeah.

Carl Scully: 29:59

Anyway, life sucks Mick, I'm telling.

Mick Spiers: 30:02

That's but that's the injustice. I'm glad to see you both here now and moving on.

Carl Scully: 30:09

Worse has happened. was for both of us. It was a pretty emotionally troubling time, and both of us took a few years to recover. One of the reasons why the book was never written for many years was it was a difficult time. I'm not going to shook a coat at Mick, and I'm sure Mark won't. But now, all these years later, we have a chuckle and say, well, there's tons of people who are treated worse than we have been, and the scheme of things, we got to near the top of our game. Mark didn't quite get to commission. I didn't quite get to Premier. Geez, we did great jobs for long times, and we had good times, and the end sometimes is not pleasant for many in leadership positions. That's just how it is. If you don't want to run that risk, then don't become a leader.

Mick Spiers: 30:54

That's that's true as well. I've got to say one thing about with the political game in Australia and in other countries. Yes, this was the event for you. Who knows, five years later, someone for political gain might have taken a different pot shot at you. So, it is a it's a perilous.

Carl Scully: 31:11

I do have a laugh. Mick about these brand experts and public relations experts. And the minister should do this, and Albo should do that, and Dutton should be positioned. And I say, quietly, I don't do it public. I say quietly, well, how many media firing squads did you face and for how many years? Because I think I got excoriated, I just lost count. Was just, oh yeah, okay, that's just part of the game. But it does amuse me, how many experts there are on media relations. It's quite different, actually, former staffers who become ministers and then sit in the firing squad on some issue. I go, what was it like being often they go, Oh, geez, mate, it was so easy advising you. Now we've got to cop the flack so.

Mick Spiers: 32:00

it's not different, all right. Mark, is there anything that you reflect on now, 19 years later, that you would have done differently, either on the day or in the days after?

Mark Goodwin: 32:11

Um, on the day, I think I've I've already outlined like I would spend if I could rewind the clock, but they already just outlined previously, I would spend much more time mentoring future potential leaders and commanders to have the confidence that you can throw them into these situations. Certainly, it is done, but I think not enough of and I don't know the situation now, and I certainly hope that has changed in the days after, what I would have done differently is I would have gone to the minister, and should have gone to the Minister about the internal politics and conflicts of interest and things that were brewing behind the scenes that led to a announcement of a strike horse inquiry into the Police command, because normally, look, I don't have any issue whatsoever about being criticized. Looked at, and indeed, every single police operation is a substantial debrief takes place, and that looks at and everyone, as I mentioned earlier, everyone from the most junior constable in the room to the commander of it, has their say, and rightly so, that what worked, what didn't, what could we have done better? I had that legislation go. How could the legislation be improved? What equipment do we need that we could have make a business case to government and what for? What training issues were there? So forth and on. It gets and these debrief processes take place for every police operation. I had already instigated that. To be honest. We internally that already, that process had already started. And then a man came to me in a caravan park waving a newspaper, telling me that the commissioner had announced a strike force investigation. So Strike Force is only to do with organized crime and homicides and major investigations and so forth. So I was mortified at that Mick I should have I worked in a hierarchical organization, Mick. So to go beyond the commissioner to a minister with what was occurring internally and what internal politics were occurring would be complete career suicide, to be honest with you, no circumstance. So that ended up happening anyway, so in hindsight, I should have gone.

Mick Spiers: 34:25

Maybe, but, yeah, tough decision. Yeah, I get it all right, all right. Well, well, thank you so much. It's been an amazing conversation. I feel very privileged sitting here listening to you both correct the record, and I lived through this time, and I can guarantee you that I now have a much clearer view of what happened compared to what I thought had happened. So thank you on my behalf, and thank you on behalf of everyone for clearing the record of what really happened during those days. I'd like to now go to our Rapid Round. So I want to give you both the chance to answer these questions. All of our guests answer these questions. So what's the one thing now, Carl Scully, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Carl Scully: 35:05

The level of treachery and disloyalty and over trusting wise and I still do trusting people too much. There's more treachery and disloyalty than I ever imagined. But I still would have a go. I'd just be more aware, is what I tell my 20 year old self, yeah, more away. Be less revealing about your ambitions. I think every man his dog knew that I wanted to be Prime Minister when I was 17, and by the time I was 30, all right, I was going to start politics. Of course. I was going to be better than Neville Rand. I'd be far more circum. Respect and more cautious.

Mick Spiers: 35:43

Yeah, okay, yep, makes sense. All right. Mark Goodwin, what's the one thing you know now that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Mark Goodwin: 35:51

Oh, I think that to the importance of family and the support and what wonderful experiences you were having to refute you with them and spend more time with them. I think, as you move up the ranks, and in any organization, really the amount of hours, and certainly in those days, I was doing 20 hour days, but literally after hours, the phone would ring and problem and be up at 5am in the morning getting briefed about what was going to hit, the drop years in the morning and and what the police response to that was going to be. And they used to bring if the police media unit. So the commissioners directed that you're eating the shit sandwich this morning all the media, and that meant that you were you're going to cop it in the throat, and the time away from family. And then how wonderful the experience of raising children and their bringing children is, and how important they so I'm trying to put it back, trying to put some back now.

Mick Spiers: 36:44

Yeah, well done, Mark.

Carl Scully: 36:46

A good comment on that. Mick, you never know as a leader, what is enough to be a good leader, and so what happens? Mark, spot on, family can suffer. So both of us only knew how to work at 100 miles per hour, doing big hours. When I look back, I think, well, I didn't need quite work that hard. I could have had more time with the family Mark spot on at the end of the day. They're the ones who are there at the end, hopefully, and in my own case, so any spare time, I cherish the children, perhaps more than my wife. She's still with me. She still loves me, and she says it's fine, you spent the time with the children, but if I had my time over again, I'd probably try and be more romantic, because I was so focused on the job. Sure, the case with most successful leaders at top levels can't do it by half.

Mick Spiers: 37:42

That's a good one for all of us high performers, we're driven like that, right so.

Carl Scully: 37:46

But there's no equation. Mick, where you can it says equals hours with family and so, yeah, you've got to, you got to crash tackle the diary and just and one, perhaps this is not quite what you're interviewing me about. Or one lovely thing at my retirement, my son and my daughter got up a large crowd of people and said he was always there. He attended every speech night, every PNC, where every teacher performance thing, he was always there. And I always tried to be so. But that often of crash tackling the diary, there is no formula.

Mick Spiers: 38:22

Yeah, really good reflection for all of us. There is no formula, but we need to try to get that in the right balance. And you said that they're there at the end. It's also, and I've got to speak on behalf of both you here. You went through tough times. Your family are the ones that are there by you through thick and thin. It's not just at the end. They're also there when things don't go well. All right, Carl, what is your favorite book?

Carl Scully: 38:45

I'd have to say To Kill a Mocking do. It had a profound impact on me as a teenager, 15, and introduced me to discrimination, tolerance and hope, and which have been an understanding of all those has driven me into the area of social justice and a center leftist party. If I have to name another book, I can't even remember the name, but I read a bit over a year ago about how Woodrow Wilson went close after the November 1916 election to securing peace through back channels between Germany and England, and that is so little known. In the end, he listened to advice from a senior advisor, and he balked. And both sides wanted, both sides. I didn't realize both sides wanted to settle. It could have saved lives of millions. Yeah, to kill a mockingbirds probably have more impact on me, and it's, I guess that's the same for a lot of people.

Mick Spiers: 39:45

Yeah, I love it, all right. Very good. What about you? Mark Goodwin, what's your favorite book?

Mark Goodwin: 39:50

I'm going to say 1984 by George Orwell. And the reasons I think, I think, as a kid, I is fascinated about what the future was going to look like. I mean in this, in my lifetime, we've seen literally, from going from the Iceman through to fridges and microwaves, and then the computer came along in Linda the first time. So went to be like a computer, and it took up an entire room with its own air conditioning system. And so 1984 although we've gone way beyond that now, but always fascinated me.

Mick Spiers: 40:24

Yeah, well done. All right, very good. Now, let's start with you on this one Mark. What's your favorite quote?

Mark Goodwin: 40:30

Well, this one's very relevant to me, so it's a quote by Martin Luther King, and it's injustices anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere you.

Mick Spiers: 40:41

Yeah, that's powerful, particularly with what you all went through, the good and bad that you went through in your career. Well said. And Carl Scully, what's your favorite quote?

Carl Scully: 40:50

Oh, one of my facial favorite maybe Field Marshal von Moltke, a great Prussian field kind of Field Marshal throughout the 1870s all battle plans are sound until first engagement with the enemy, yeah, so you can apply that. But said more ghoulishly was Mike Tyson when he was asked about the fight plan of his opponent. And he said, all of my opponents have fight plans until I punch them in the face. Punch them in the face. Yeah, that's yeah. But I think von Moltke summed up this very much effort. I was even having a meeting today with someone on advising and talking about their strategy, and I told them that I said, strategy is just a snapshot. A plan is a snapshot. It's just, it's a light, five miles away. It's but a lot of organizations get so head up about the strategy. Yep, it's sound until first engagement with your competitor. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yeah, that's a good quote, but I guess the other one was Oscar Wilde, so would you like to get my name right?

Mick Spiers: 41:54

Yeah, all right, very good. All right. Now We'd also love to give you the opportunity to promote the book and tell people how to get in contact with the both of you or get a copy of the book. So Carl, I'll leave the floor toyou.

Carl Scully: 42:06

Yeah, Connor court, we were delighted. It's tough getting publishers in this stone age in Australia, it's not a huge market, but Connor court produces a lot of books in the challenging, accepted truths genre, and they embrace this book because it challenges the accepted myth or truth, particularly about the racist Shire and other things so Connor court publishing or Amazon or a small number of bookstores in Sydney, for example, Abbey's and delete books, but generally go through Connor court or Amazon costs about 40 bucks. Mick, I've read it myself. I think it's exceptionally well written.

Mick Spiers: 42:50

Well Well done. Carl, you're allowed to say that. All right. Look, thank you both so much for your time today, for your service. I want to start with that. Thank you for your service to the state of New South Wales and to the people of Australia, right? So what you did probably seems like it's a eon ago, but what you did left a lasting legacy. And if you didn't do what you do, the the country, the state, the city, would have been in a different shape for a very long time. So thank you for your service, and then thank you for your time today. Thank you for right, taking the time to write the book and clear the record. Thank you for sharing your wisdom today and your reflections, including those wonderful leadership reflections that you shared Carla, thank you both.

Carl Scully: 43:32

Thank you. I might just lead this to what Mark and I endeavor to do was create a go to reference work so even 5, 10, 20 years down the track students, senior school kids. Anyone wanting to find out what happened as opposed to what others said happened. Were hoping this is seen as a reference work.

Mick Spiers: 43:54

What an amazing interview with former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully and former Deputy Police Commissioner Mark Goodwin, I learnt so much here about the role of media in such an event, the dangers of social media, the tribalism and human behavior around public uprisings and deep reflections about what it means to lead a team in a crisis. In the next episode, I'm going to be joined by Sue Anderson, the author of the books feedback, fitness, unshakable at work and unbullyable. And we're going to be talking about exactly what that means. What is feedback fitness? Are you fit to give feedback? Do you know how to give feedback? Do you fear giving feedback. Sue has got some amazing tips for all of us about giving feedback in the workplace. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP, Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week. And you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.