229. Building Inclusive Workplaces with Dr. Carol Parker Walsh

Discover how Dr. Carol Parker Walsh transformed her career from labor and employment law to becoming a leading voice in executive coaching and team development. Join us as Dr. Walsh shares her journey and the pivotal insights she's gained along the way. Learn how her desire to create harmonious workplace environments led her to focus on preventing conflicts before they escalate, shining a light on the importance of proactive, people-centered leadership.

Explore the essential role trust plays in building high-performance teams and how discrepancies between a company's stated values and actual employee experiences can erode trust and engagement. Dr. Walsh unpacks the critical importance of psychological safety and offers strategies to create an environment where employees feel safe to express ideas and contribute meaningfully. By acknowledging imperfections and fostering a culture of co-creation, organizations can enhance engagement and cultivate a dynamic work culture.

We also examine the challenges of transitioning to a people-focused leadership style, with insights into embracing vulnerability and leveraging individual strengths within a team. Listen in as we discuss how openness and humility can drive team cohesion, and the necessity of resetting when dynamics aren't working. Finally, discover how to access Dr. Walsh's rich resources for those eager to champion people-centered leadership in their organizations, ensuring a lasting impact and a transformative work culture.

🌐 Connect with Dr. Carol:
• Website: https://www.carolparkerwalsh.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/parkerwalsh/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcarolparkerwalsh

Exploring Workplace Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
Learn the why, what and how of fostering a mentally healthy workplace with Dr Bill Howatt

Chapters

• 0:00 Building High-Performance Teams Through Authentic Leadership
• 11:38 Navigating Expectations and Building Trust
• 16:26 [Ad] Exploring Workplace Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
• 17:16 Creating Psychological Safety in Organizational Culture
• 17:16 (Cont.) Navigating Expectations and Building Trust
• 22:55 Transitioning From Expert to Catalyst Leadership
• 33:42 Fostering Psychological Safety Through Open Dialogue
• 38:26 Cultivating Trust and Collaboration in Teams
• 47:02 Navigating Culture Shifts Through Vulnerability
• 58:58 Empowering People-Centered Leadership Approach

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:00

What if the key to thriving in your career lies not in doing it all yourself, but empowering others around you? How can creating an environment of trust, vulnerability and transparency transform your team dynamics, and what does it truly mean to lead with authenticity? Today, we're joined by Dr. Carol Parker Walsh, an award winning executive coach, in this conversation, we explore how leaders can build high performance teams, the importance of psychological safety and why embracing vulnerability is essential for long term success. Hey everyone and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I have a special treat for you today. We are joined by Dr. Carol Parker Walsh. She is a multi award winning executive coach with more than three decades experience in Labor and Employment Law. She held a doctorate in jurisprudence from Chicago Kent College of Law. She has two master's degrees in human development and organizational development. She has a PhD in leadership and organizational systems, and she's a certified brand strategist and master certified executive coach. But apart from that, what else have you done in your career? Carol, oh, sorry for the joke, but, but absolutely amazing. Congratulations on what an incredible career and and the successes that you've had. Dying to get into this discussion, Carol, please tell us a little bit more about your background, not so much about the academic stuff. That's just incredible. But how did you transition from focusing on law to what you do today with with executive coaching and high performance teams, which is going to be a huge part of our discussion today.

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 1:50

Yeah, well, thanks for asking it. Thanks for having me. It's such an honor and pleasure to be here. Well, it's interesting. I decided to go into law because I wanted to protect individuals at the workplace. I knew way back then that we spend most of our time at our job, and I wanted to be some type of catalyst of support for individuals to be successful within the workplace. And I had some pretty precarious experiences myself, and so that's what prompted me to go into law. But I'll be honest, had I heard of this thing called organizational development and leadership development consulting, way back when I was going after my law degree in the 80s, I probably would have focused on this work than doing law. So I practiced for 10 years and did labor and employment law and labor negotiations, employment discrimination, litigation. And while I enjoyed supporting and helping people, I'm not adversarial by nature and law. You're just dealing with people on the tail end of all of the conflict, when it just becomes unbearable untenable, and now we're at a place of suing each other, and I am much more of a mediative person, and I love to engage deeply with what's happening before we get there. And I wanted to be able to be a better support, which is why I moved from representing people and suing organizations to going inside of organizations and helping them be better. And in fact, when I made the transition from an attorney to an internal organizational consultant, that was my mindset, like, how can I help you not be sued? Right? How can I help you avoid all of the pitfalls that I have seen over and over again through depositions and and trials and arbitrations and negotiations. How can I help you avoid that by coming into the organization and helping you strategize or function better or support your people in a much better way than maybe you thought was possible in the past. So I transitioned out of law, I went into becoming an internal consultant, and through that work, I was tapped to create a diversity and professional development unit within part of the academic healthcare system that I was a part of. Then I, after I got my doctorate, I was tapped to step into Professor it and to start teaching leadership development and healthcare leadership and all the different aspects of that, and became a director for a Leadership and Organizational Leadership Development Program before I moved into becoming a dean that same in that same university. But I watched my trajectory kind of go down this one path, and I really missed getting into working with leaders and supporting them and coaching and training and development and all of the work that I was doing. And so 10 years ago, actually, this month, I decided that I wanted to go back into that work and launch my practice to focus on supporting leaders, supporting teams and supporting organizations, to really be more effective, to really lean into what it means to be a people centered leader as while we're looking at all of the goals and objectives we're trying to achieve. But how do we create an environment that really supports the people that are achieving those goals for you.

Mick Spiers: 5:05

I absolutely love really interesting story. Carol and first of all, fully agree with you. People spend up to 1/3 of their life in the workplace, and no one deserves to work in a workplace that is toxic and not working. Everyone deserves to work in a workplace that feels inclusive and inspiring. So what I'm hearing here in that first chapter, let's call it, is that you saw some injustices in the world where there are people out there that were not being treated the right way. They were falling into these situations that were quite challenging, and they potentially didn't have the skill sets to look after themselves and to protect themselves. To use your term, and one of the great symbols of a great society is when we look after those that aren't equipped to look after themselves. So thank you for all of your decades of work in that but then I'm seeing that twist then to go, Well, isn't prevention better than cure. So you said that you're getting in at the tail end where the relationship has already fallen apart. And if, and if we're suing each other, it's already gone past some kind of point. It's gone past the point of no return to where it's it's not going to repatriate very well from that moment onwards. So I'm seeing this thing. Well, what if we created the environment where you never had to sue each other, because we never got that far. So here's, here's my first question. It's a pretty challenging one. Carol, I really believe that no boss, manager corporate team. Let's call it leadership. No leadership team turns up to work every day, going, rubbing their hands together, going, what can we do today to really come down on our staff and do a terrible job and make them feel horrible, and no employee comes to work each day going, What can I do today to really upset the management and and be a troublemaker, etc? How do we get there? How do we get there where we have people that come to work with the right intentions, but it just it does. It falls apart in many organizations.

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 7:11

Yeah, that's a fabulous, million dollar question, right? I believe, in the years of my work and even in my study, what I believe and what I've seen is that we are taught how to function in that environment in a way where leaders can be supportive and employees can, you know, step up and be supportive to their manager or to the organizational objectives. We organizations are designed. Companies are designed to be profit centers, and so the first and usually last line of focus and business is, are we making money? Are we getting things done? Are we doing them in a cost effective manner, and are we successful? All of which are important, but what gets lost in there is, how are we supporting the people to do it. And it's not that people are coming in with ill intent, you're absolutely right. It's that people are just coming in unskilled, unlearned and unprepared. On how to really support people to do that work. What we value in our society, particularly in this country, is success and that you're a high level individual contributor, and that you're most successful, most competitive, achieving the most. So we value success in how people are achieving. We haven't, over the decades, put a lot of value on how are you treating your people? Are your people happy? Are they performing? Well, we've looked at people as commodities that can be traded in and out, as opposed to value as valuable assets that we want to develop and nurture so that they can do their best possible work. We kind of started out that way. We used to have these workplaces where people would come in and you'd work there forever, then you retire and leave. So there used to be this loyalty of the organization to the people. But even in that it still wasn't people focused. It was like, yes, let's pay them and they will work hard for us. But it really wasn't about, how do I develop them? How do I support them? How do I make sure they're enjoying what they're doing? That came much later, and usually the friction between I'm not happy and I'm leaving, and the cost of having to refill that position has made some organizations pay more attention to how can I retain my best talent than having to constantly replace them. So I think part of the issue is, you're correct, there's no ill will going in on either side, but the focus had been all about the profit and productivity, and people just adapted to that. So we weren't because we weren't able to support individuals and how they would grow and develop, or how we teach or work with individuals, or how we support them in their career trajectory, or to be successful, because we weren't focusing on that, we were just becoming much more demanding on the delivery of the service, and in that there's conflict, there's friction. There's ignoring of people's values and expectations. There's rebellion and resistance to that. That happens. It's just all part of human nature as part of the human development work that I do. It's all part of that human nature that bubbles up in an organizational system. And so then you have things like conflict and people who are dissatisfied or unfulfilled or lack of or not productive, and leaders who because they weren't trained on how to deal with that, don't know what to do, and the answer usually is corrective discipline and or termination and just bring somebody else in. So we've kind of created a system that doesn't allow for us to lean in, to support the individual, or to even have a people centered focus. It's more productivity and profit focus, and what we're learning how to do and what we've been doing over the last few years. And definitely, as we're moving into the future of work, is really asking those questions about, How do we do both? And how do we do both, well.

Mick Spiers: 10:58

Yeah, I can see exactly what we're talking about, this tension between profit performance and the people, and I can see exactly what you're talking about, and but I also know I'm going to be preaching to the converted in what I'm going to say here is that we succeed through our people, not at the expense of our people. And and when we create the environment where they feel included, where they feel inspired, where they feel engaged, they then do their very best work, and the profits and the performance comes when we create the environment where they can do their very best work. That's when the very thing that you're looking for starts to come. So I'm going to challenge it a little bit more Carol and see what happens here. Is it a fact of too much pressure on short term performance versus long term performance, like companies trying to get that quarter end result because the shareholders are expecting it, so they'll make a short term decision that might be good for the bottom line, but detrimental to the people at the expense of the people, as opposed to better, more sustainable decisions that grow the profit and the performance over time through the people, is that where the tension comes.

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 12:10

I believe that is where the tension comes, and I think it's also skewed expectations, right? So when an employer is hiring an employee to come in, there's this expectation that, of course, they're going to come in and do their very best, of course they're going to be willing to work overtime and on weekends to get the job done. Of course they're going to contribute at the highest level. You know, it's a barter, it's an exchange, right? I gave you a position, I paid you a salary. Of course, you're going to perform at your highest level. But there's other things that come in between that, and I think that's what you're talking about, the sacrifice of the long term, kind of success and the culture that you're developing that allows for sustainability over time versus we just need to get it done. We got you in here, and we want you to get focused. And the tension is, how do we support people to be able to do that, not just in the long term, but not just in the short term, rather, but over the long term. And so I think we have some competing expectations that are coming into an organization, and employees thinking, I'm coming in, this is going to be great. There's so many benefits that I learned about or people seem happy here, so I'm going to be treated well. And the employer's expectation that, well, I brought you in, I'm paying you a salary, I gave you an office, a cubicle, or a bunch of benefits, you know, a company car or laptop, so that you're happy, right? So now I expect the highest level from you, and so there's a little bit of false or disconnect in terms of the expectations coming in that don't quite get met, and that's where the tension becomes. And then also, when you're looking at those short term and long term objectives, when the short term the focus is so hard on the short term that we are missing, how are we supporting people for long term sustainability?

Mick Spiers: 13:51

Yeah, really good. Carol, so I'm hearing mismatch of expectations and maybe some missing conversations there as well. Carol, like the leadership thinking, Oh, we, we gave them everything they wanted, but did you even ask them what they wanted? So there's a mismatch in both ways. So, so there's a mismatch where the leadership are going, Well, why aren't people stepping up and stepping in here? We gave them everything they wanted, but they never asked what they wanted.

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 14:16

And you know, I do, I do some work with executives, sometimes around salary negotiation, particularly with women, because women are notoriously bad at asking for anything. But the mindset is, I'll just take I'll just say yes to everything they're saying along the process, and once I get in, then I'll ask for this, or I'll demonstrate my ability, and then they'll be much more amenable to providing an extra benefit, or more time off, or other things that would really make them a much more effective employee. And in a lot of ways, they're a little bit hesitant about asking for that upfront, so that contributes to the false expectation as well. Yeah. Because employees don't feel like they can negotiate in that process to say, Listen, this is what's going to help me be highly successful here. And I want to make sure that I'm coming into an environment, and you're creating the space, and we are in agreement that if I get these things, or I'm able to operate in this way, that I am going to perform at high level for you. I am going to bring my 100% best for you. And so that's sometimes a little bit part of that, that mismatch and those false expectations that kind of come in and that, that tension that is caused in between the two.

Mick Spiers: 15:29

Yeah, I see it. And definitely two way, two way mismatch of expectations and missing conversations that people could have to do that. The next thing I want to ask is, what role a breakdown in trust plays here, right? So something that you said a few minutes ago, Carol was, you know, people, a lot of companies do say, you know, people are our most important asset, and they'll say we're a people first company, and they'll have a lot of office wall plaques that say how much they care about their people. But the actions don't always match what the rhetoric is saying. And then when the action actions don't match what the leadership team is saying, that's when people start not trusting leadership, and then they start backing off and disengaging. And guess what? Then the leadership start mistrusting the people, because the people aren't delivering what they thought they were going to deliver. So it becomes a spiral where the trust just gets worse and worse. How does that sit with you?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 17:07

Yeah, and I believe that comes about because there's a very big difference between talking the talk and walking the talk. No organization is going to lay out and say, Listen, we don't trust our people. We mistreat them. We want the best out of them. You're lucky if you get a paycheck, so come on and work for us, right? So all of organizations will espouse this idea of people forward, and we believe in our people, and we support them, and we provide opportunities. It's what would make an employee want to come into an organization. And I think a lot of organizations believe that is what they're creating. The problem is what they're espousing. But what the true nature of the culture is usually that's the disconnect where people maybe aren't feeling as if they have the opportunity to complain about what's happening in the organization, to challenge the status quo, to feel comfortable making mistakes or errors and seeing those as opportunities for learning and growth for the organization itself is not a learning, growing organization. It's really steeped in tradition, and this is the way we do things, and this is the way we always done things, and this worked for us in the past, so we're going to continue to do it. So in a lot of ways, organizational culture may be espoused in one way, but it's actually lived and experienced in a completely different way. And sometimes leadership may be experiencing it one way, and that middle management level, where usually is the turn between fulfilling expectations of the upper level management and really the employees who are delivering the work is where the disconnect can often happen, is where the spouse values and the espoused nature of what the culture is saying it is. It's not being carried out because you have this layer that of managers who are over taxed, who are under Managed, who have don't have the resources that they need, who are trying to have these competing factors to meet these demands of the higher level of the organization while still trying to support their leaders. And that's usually where the rub meets, where people are having challenges and issues. And I think that is one of the biggest things that causes some of the disconnect between who we say we are and who we actually are, right? So how we see that play out is, is there open communication? Is there opportunity to fail? Can I speak up if I see something going wrong, or can I bring forth an idea or innovation that may change things or make us be for the better? Are we a learning organization where we're seeing opportunities to grow, as opposed to trying to suppress that and keep us the way we are. And those type of things can come from an overworked, overtaxed manager that middle level that's like, I don't have time to be innovative and creative. I gotta I have objectives that I have to meet, and I'm not getting the support to develop the way I need to or to develop my talent that's underneath me.

Mick Spiers: 20:03

Yeah. Really like it, Carol, there's two major themes I'm picking up there. And the first one is around just a bit of honesty and a bit of openness, transparency and even humility all the way back at the recruitment stage, during the interview process and during the onboarding and every day after that, to be able to say, You know what? Things are not perfect around here. We don't get it right every day. But I tell you what, we damn well try every day, and we try to get better, and come and join us on this journey and help us make it better. That would be, that would be a better setting of expectation than we're the best company in the world. Come and join us. And then they joined, and two weeks later they go, really, you're the best company, really, right? So that's the first one. And then the second one was the psychological safety that if you're going to say, hey, come and join us and help us make this better, you better be ready for the psychological safety of someone sticking their hand up and saying, Oh, I've got an idea on how to make this better. Well, then you're co creating a new organization together, not pretending that it's perfect, but admitting that it's imperfect, but creating the space where people can co create the improvements of the culture, and then all of a sudden people start taking ownership and and wanting to do better. How does that sit with you?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 21:21

That is 100% true. And sometimes, you know, as I said, there's a that that middle management, that that that level that's actually working with the employees, is where sometimes this falls apart. I have talked to C suite senior leaders, higher level leaders, that are shocked when they get an employee survey or an employee feedback, and people are unhappy, or there's a higher amount of turnover, or things of that nature, because they've been in conversation with their directors or middle managers, and they're communicating everything's great, everything's fine. You know, people are happy. We're getting things done, and they're looking at the reports and the numbers where they're producing at the level that they should in terms of whatever their objectives are, and they think, okay, everything must be well, and they're not having that larger conversation with the organization to really understand what's happening. And so then you have the individuals who feel like they can't voice themselves, where there's not that psychological safety to speak up around something, and so people make choices with their feet. They decide to leave, or they become very apathetic, and they're not very engaged, and their productivity levels are not as high, which puts higher level pressure on that middle manager to really start to throw down the gauntlet, to try to really get people to either step up or to move on. And and I think there's a lot of these factors and dynamics that are impacting the ability to have true psychological safety. But leadership, you know, to what you said was perfect, there needs to be a transparency, but there needs to be an understanding at all levels of leadership about what's happening in the organization, so that it's not you don't have this cog in the wheel, if you will, that's keeping the espouse values from being realized throughout the organization and not just at the upper level of the organization.

Mick Spiers: 23:09

Yeah, fantastic, Carol, this is a huge takeaway for me. You got me thinking a lot about this, and I want the audience to do this as well, about this expectation setting and being able to admit that things are imperfect, and then create the environment where people can engage and CO create the future. Otherwise, you've got the option here is, you've just leave it as is. You're going to spiral. If you have the right conversation, a transparent and open conversation, you can turn it into a virtuous cycle where you're getting 1% better every day, not 1% worse every day. Really powerful. Carol the at the start of the show, we promised that we talk about high performance teams, so we've spoken a lot so far about where we've gone wrong and where some organizations can fall apart when it comes to culture and the environment they're we're creating. How do we then, when we create that right environment, how do we then convert that into high performance teams? The first question I got for you is, in your definition, what does a high performance team look like?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 24:12

For me, for my definition, a high performance team is an is a highly engaged, highly productive, highly innovative team where there's open communication, where individuals are able to problem solve, there's a high level of self sustainability, of self accountability, and the ability to bring forth solutions and to really support and elevate all of the goals and objectives within that particular team. So for me, that is a high performing team. It's almost, in a lot of ways, a self managed, highly evolved group of individuals that are able to function at what it's called a high level of high performance.

Mick Spiers: 24:54

What I'm picking up there is a lot of almost interdependence there. So the engagement, the problem solving that you spoke about, and what I'm not hearing is a lot of waiting for the boss to decide on things, that they they're autonomous, semi autonomous, that they that they're almost working like a machine, that everyone plays their part, but they don't have to wait for someone else. They just get on with it. Is that what I'm hearing?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 25:18

That's exactly what you're hearing. And, you know, part of the, you know, and I alluded to this before, that part of where the breakdown with a lot of success in organizations is at that management level. And what we know statistically is that 78% of managers are feeling over, taxed and overworked. We know that there's a lot of turnover at that level, because there's a lot of burnout for them at that level. That. They're not getting the resources. 48% of them are saying we're not getting what we need in order to support the team that we want, or the resources to help us be effective. And most managers, people who are promoted and people leader positions are promoted because they themselves are high performers, because they themselves have delivered, because they themselves have achieved great things in the organization, and so they get tapped to say, well, you would make a great leader, because look at how well you're doing. So we want that to rub off on their people. But what's so critical, one of the key things when people move into management or to people leadership positions, is they have to move from being the catalyst or the the expert to the catalyst, is what I say. They have to move from being the SME, the subject matter expert, the one who knows everything, the one who does everything, to the one who becomes a catalyst to support their team, to do that. This type of leader or this type of person that steps into this role usually aren't great good. They're not really good at delegating, because they're used to doing everything themselves. They're not good at communicating, because they're used to just getting the information and moving forth without having to explain or bring people along or invite people in or motivate people to join the vision or be a part of the vision. They're used to working very independently, and so they lead in the same way, it's with the expectation that people will just pick up and act the way they've been doing, but not everyone has that same ability or acumen. So what's missing is really helping that new people leader understand how to shift from being an expert to a catalyst for change, when we can help shift their mindset from what it really means to be a people centered leader, as opposed to just a leader that begins the process of them getting the tools and resources they need to then help the people on their team become those high performers, become more self accountable to be able to work independently without having to always go to the boss saying, Okay, I'm stuck. What do you think I should do because you're holding all the cards to your vest and you're not giving them the opportunity to be able to bring forth any other options, or to even up level their own expertise and knowledge and wisdom, to be able to be a support on the team.

Mick Spiers: 27:52

Yeah, I love your phrase, Carol expert to catalyst. I think that's another, another great takeaway for the audience today. Just think about that. If you're on the tram on the way to work today, are you still playing the role of expert, or are you playing the role of catalyst? It is a difficult transition, by the way, because what if you were a prolific individual contributor and the superstar on the team, what you were getting applauded for yesterday isn't the skills that you need today as a catalyst, you can't be the individual, prolific person anymore. Your job now is to be a multiplier for seven other people so that they can knock it out of the park. The good news in that is that now there's seven of you, not one of you. The bad news is, yeah, what worked for you yesterday won't work for you today. What can you help people with in terms of making that transition? If yesterday, they were on stage and getting applauded for their knocking it out of the park every day, and now today, it's not about them anymore. It's not about them at all anymore. It's about the environment they create for others. How does someone deal with that transition?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 29:00

Yeah, well, there's a couple things that help. One, you know, we would love organizations to reward that people focused type of leader, so when they are leaning into their people and supporting their people, that that gets celebrated and not just the success that they're achieving on their team. So that reinforces that behavior. So that's, that's, that's one way organizationally, that can happen. But for the individual, it really helps to shift their mindset, to see that, wow. If I can turn, if I can turn these seven people on my team into exceptional people, if I can create our team into, you know, I love superheroes, you know, and Marvel Comics and all of that kind of thing. So if I could turn our team into the Avengers, right? When you think about the Avengers, it's not just the one person who does everything and then the other people are just backing them up. Every person on the team is a superhero, right? Every person on the team has talents and skills and abilities that, if you learn how to leverage and harness them, then we can all be excellent, right? And that's going to make you, as the leader, actually get the credit for having such an amazing team that is functioning at such an amazing level. And to set the example, it's also when you think about it, most leaders people centered leaders have horrible time management, horrible delegation, and are excessively burnt out. So another approach is to say, how would you like to have more time to really focus on the higher level things that you want to focus on? How would it feel not to be burnt out and where you're the last one leaving the first one coming in and there on the weekend, where you actually can have balance in your in your life and in your career? What would it. Feel like to know that if you were to take a vacation, your team is not only going to step up and do amazing, but they're going to make not only you look good, but make everyone look good. And you know you can depend on them and have high level of trust and dependency in the people that you have on your team. Often, when you talk to people about like, what would that vision look like, right? What would the image of that way of leading look like for you, it becomes much more appealing. And when that vision can be aligned with their own goals and ideas of what they really want to achieve and the objectives they have in their role, it becomes a much palatable conversation. And you know, then we start talking about what that means and what that takes, what are some of the things that you want to start doing once you change your mindset and start showing up, then it's about, how do we then change the mindset of the individual so that they become accountable? How do we manage their thought process? How do we manage their decision making skills? How do we give them greater responsibilities and allow them to have, as we talked about before, that side psychological safety, even within your team, to make sure that people feel as if they can raise their hand, they could come forth, they can bring ideas. And how are you rewarding that what you pay attention to and what you reward is what's going to increase. And so when leaders do that for the managers who are becoming people centered leaders, and those leaders do that with their people, then you start seeing a shift in not only your feeling as if you have to be responsible for everything, but also your people, seeing that they can take some of that ownership and responsibility as well.

Mick Spiers: 32:11

And really powerful, Carol. We absolutely get the behavior that we celebrate and reward. That's exactly what we do, and what I loved, what you said about celebrating the leader who who is exhibiting the right behaviors as a people centered leader, not just their achievements. And that's when you're going to start noticing the shift as the leader that's going through that transition to be able to shift my mindset towards being proud of the things that my team are achieving. It may not have been me that shot, that last shot, into the basket, metaphorically speaking, but my team did it, and I created the environment where they, each of the Avengers, could do their very best work and and work together. And that's where the pride comes going home, proud that I did, that, I created that, and the team, and I'm so proud of my team, because they they knocked it out of the park. Yeah? Absolutely love it all right. So what tips can you give to someone that sitting there going, Yeah, this is exactly what I want. They might be trying. I'm going to say they probably are trying. They've probably tried all kinds of things to create that environment that you spoke about, the one where you said, you know, the person can go on leave and in the knowledge that the team are going to knock it out of the park while they're even not there, how do they even start if, if they've had a few missteps already?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 33:33

Yeah, the the first thing I think, well, in what we've done in terms of trying to cultivate that with their team is to really, to assess where everyone's at, really to get that information. Don't make assumptions. That's the biggest challenge that leaders make. And this, again, is that subject matter expert mindset that I'm going to figure it out, I'm going to create what needs to happen. I'm going to put this together. So we want to dissuade from that way of thinking and start bringing everyone into the conversation. And the first way to do that is really gage where your people are at. Have open conversation and dialog and ask, How do you feel about being able to raise your hand and offer ideas and solutions? Do you feel comfortable doing that? Do you feel like the environment is such that you can be able to make suggestions, and let's just be real. It's a psychological safety as part of that work is these core issues, these four domains, I use edmonson's work we do psychological safety in the work that we do with organizations. And so you know, this is the four areas. Where do you see that you can get help and support? Where do you see that you can be raise your hand and share and give information? Do you feel as if you are belong, that you belong in this group, that you can be authentically yourself? Do you feel like you have to hide pieces of yourself or hide your brilliance, or not shine too much because someone else will be intimidated by it? Is any of that going on within the organization, and you know, is there? Do you feel that I'm transparent in my communication? Do you feel like what you're doing is aligned and valuable, not only just within our team, but to the organization? How clearly do you see what you're doing aligned to the organizational mission, vision and goals, so that you know you're making an impact with what you're doing. You're just not showing up and punching a clock, but the work that you're doing is so valuable and so meaningful to not only the organization, but the stakeholders and the customers or whoever, what you're doing has a piece of impact that's going to impact a larger group or community or economy, right? And so when we can ask for that information, to start having open dialog, then we can begin to co create. Well, what do we want to be? How do we want to be? How do we want to show up together? Some of the ways that we can change. Let's pick one of those categories and start asking, what would it look like if we were able to have greater delegation, if we were able to give more responsibility, if you were able to contribute at a higher level or show up in a different way, do you need to show up at different meetings than you were going to before? Do I need to invite you into spaces? Do I need to make sure that people are clear about the contributions that are being made on the team? So I'm giving a lot, but I'll back up the first thing you want to do is not think you can do it yourself, but invite the team into the conversation and ask those questions, get that data, and then you could begin the process of CO creating it together.

Mick Spiers: 36:31

Yeah, there's a lot of powerful steps in what you're talking about there. Carol, the first thing is, you don't have to have all the answers. That's this is one of the things in my life. It took me a long time to realize that, by the way, Carol, yeah, you don't have to have all the answers. You've got a team around you that are all individually, got their own superpowers. They probably have the answers. And by the way, when you stick up your hand and say, Hey, team, I don't have all the answers, it creates the environment where they would be willing to do so as well. You're role modeling that humility and that authenticity that you want to see.

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 37:04

And vulnerability, absolutely.

Mick Spiers: 37:07

And the vulnerability, yeah, and then, then, once you can do that, you can have a really honest conversation about the self awareness of where the team's at. What are the strengths? What are the weaknesses? What do we need to do better? Start co creating that there was something else in there, though, the thread of alignment was really important, but there was a double thread there that I picked up. One was an inclusive nurse, and then there was the ability to show up as my authentic self, and then have the co creation of of the future and with an alignment. So let me play that back to you. What I heard the alignment started with, why am I here? Why am I here? What do I bring to the table? Be proud of that. Then, why are we here? What are we collectively trying to create? How do my superpowers and the things that I know I'm good at contribute to that broader vision? So why am I here? Why are we here? And then I'm going to say, why are you here? Because then, if there's seven of us, we'll keep on using a team of seven. If I understand why I'm here, if I understand why we are here. I understand why you are here. What gifts you bring to the table. All of a sudden we can have that co creation conversation, because there's there's trust, there's Oh, there's these aha moments of Oh, wow, we can. We can co create something that's much bigger than any of us individually. We've all got our own gifts, but putting one plus one plus one plus one and making it equal 27 instead of five, that's what we're here to do. How does that sit with you?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 38:52

Yeah, you you articulated that beautifully. That's exactly what it is as an individual, if I know that I have something amazing to bring to the table, and that's acknowledged, that's referenced, that's clear, not only to myself, but often reiterated back to me while I'm there. It lets me know that I know I'm making a contribution, and then when I know how to link that to the larger goal and vision, then I can see where the other people, what they're bringing to the table that's going to really support that, and then I know I have people to rely on. It does two things. One, it lets me know more specifically what I bring to the table, but it also alleviates the need for me to have to know it all and bring it all that I know in my lane what I bring is going to support this other superpower, if you will, or this other superhero skill set that's going to allow us to be a very powerful team. So then I know when to show up, when I need to kind of ebb and flow and be more be more present in a particular situation, because my skill is really going to be needed in this moment and when someone else needs to do it, that's going to lower my desire to be competitive with the people on my team, to always be raising my hand, because I want to be seen, because I want to make sure that you know that I'm making a contribution. Because we know that I already know the contribution I make, but I know that I make it in in concert with the other people that are part of my team, and that, yes, together as a superhero team, this is what the impact that we're making at the larger level, so being able to build that level of support or acknowledge and iterate that individual contribution and ability and capability, in addition to the team capability and contribution that. Also begins to alleviate this idea that me as manager, me as people leader, needs to be the one that is guiding, leading and directing at all times, because I know we have players here that allows that to happen, and that makes such a big impact. Then we start having conversations about, how are decisions being made, and what's the ability to be able to make decisions right, that we are able to think through and bring solutions and bring ideas, and not just bring problems and bring issues, that when we see a problem and an issue that we know immediately, we have the opportunity to think through some potential solutions, and we have the ability to share that with others, and even think through in that process, which one of my superhero team members can be the one that could bring these different aspects for us to come up with the solution that we need to have to move forward. And then, how are decisions being made? Are we able to, you know, how much power and leverage do we have to be able to say that we came up with this, and we think this is the way to go, and that can be co signed and agreed to, or does it have to constantly go through chains of command? Right? We know not everything can totally be decided upon the individual with the team, but how much decision making do they have? And if they have a little bit of it, and know where those areas are available to them. Then again, that alleviates the pressure of that leader being the one who has to hold all the cards and have all of the responsibility. But you articulated that beautifully, right? If I know why I'm here, if I know why we here, and I know why you're here, then it makes such a big difference on how I show up. So my level of complaining, right? I saw some study that managers spend two to three hours a week on employee drama, because people are complaining about, well, why so and so get to do this? Or why so and so got that opportunity? Or why aren't you delegating to me? Or why haven't I been picked for something and so, because I don't have that transparency of information, because I don't know that you respect the skills that I have, that I'm not thinking that my skills aren't needed right now, but in the future, they will be needed, and they're valued, even if they're not leveraged in this moment. Because I don't have that information and I don't have the confidence in that, I'm going to be a little bit more problematic, and I'm going to focus in a little bit more competitive way, or unproductive way, or a way that's not going to be conducive for us coming together to be successful. And so this makes such a huge difference when a leader can see that it's not just about them, but it's about really creating this with the team that they are then creating these high performers, as opposed to what maybe they're usually experiencing, which is a high drama.

Mick Spiers: 43:24

A lot of those fairness and equity challenges that you're talking about, they they do come from a lack of transparent and open conversations about, yeah, this is this person's time now, and here's why, and your time is coming, and here's why, right? So it's, yeah, really good. I like that. We're building a very strong recipe here, Carol, so, so one, let's talk about the engagement that we're talking about here. People want to feel seen, they want to feel heard, they want to feel valued. They want to feel that what they do matters. So everything we've been talking about will build that, because they will feel like they're doing something meaningful, the bigger purpose of the team, they'll feel like they're contributing, because they understand who am I and why am I here? And when I feel like I contributed, I can go home at the end of the day to my family proud that I contributed to something meaningful. We then have this open relationship where we understand what others are bringing to the table so that we trust them now we understand how our superpowers might come together to be the Avengers and do far more than any of us could do individually. Then some other threads that I heard in there, we're also agreeing to the behaviors and culture that we want as a team. Psychological safety is going to be one of them, but it's, you know, all of that, let's go to Kim Scott's work as well as Amy Edmondson and talk about radical candor, where we can have really proper, robust conversations about things that need to be discussed. Then I heard another really key one, Carol, which was, then we're going to agree on our ways of working. How do we prioritize? How do we make decisions? Who does what, who does what, when, where, and how people start relaxing, because they go, Well, this is just going to work. It's going to start looking like a machine. We understand what every single part of the machine does, how to do it. We will understand what will happen if a crisis comes. We'll understand what to happen if this happens, etc, this feels exhilarating at the same time as it feels almost relaxing to get away from that lack of understanding. So the the opposite of this would be, when people don't know all of those things, they're very powerful. Carol, there are reflections there on. Bringing those threads together.

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 45:43

Yeah, you know, this idea of vulnerability and transparency are very challenging, because what often happens is we lean more into and this is very common, you know, we lean more into impression management and striving to make sure that we look good and that, you know, we sound good, this is the thing that inhibits us from asking questions, from being vulnerable, from fear of making mistakes, you know, being seen as incompetent or ineffective. And again, you know, as I talked about before, what gets rewarded and what gets paid attention to is the thing that we're going to see more of than maybe what we don't. And so if we see collectively that that's happening, that's going to be problematic. And so I think that the desire to lower this idea, that we want to have this external perspective or perception of perfection and greatness and just be real and raw and have the authenticity of what's really happening. It lends itself to this greater amount of vulnerability and transparency that that opens up for these, these things to happen. I always tell people, you know, particularly if you're an organization, that this is maybe a new concept with or it's, you know, happening in pockets of the organization, but maybe not collectively. That going from what we're talking about, from maybe where you currently are, if it's not with a high performing team, it's messy. And I like to normalize the idea that it takes a moment that if you think about any kind of renovation that you've done, you don't you go from what it was, it has to be torn down and then reconstructed into something new. And that reconstruction process is messy, and maybe you mismeasured something, and now you got to pull it out and put in a new cabinet, because you thought the measurement was this, then the order came in and it was something completely different. So you have to adjust. So in the midst of that, there has to be adaptability and flexibility and resiliency, so that there's not this idea that, okay, just because I think it and I want it, it's going to happen. We're dealing with human behavior, and human behavior is messy, and I like to always normalize, that it doesn't have to be catastrophic, but it's not. It's going to take a little ebb and flow. It's going to take a minute to regain trust, to rebuild trust. It's going to take a minute for people to really think what you're saying is going to be the way. It's going to take people a minute, if you're being vulnerable, and you haven't been before, for them to say what's going on. You know, is something wrong with this person? Is something happening? It's going to take a minute. And so we really want to normalize that in that process, in that deconstruction, to reconstruct that we're going to be learning and growing. And that is really important when you think about it from a system's perspective. Because anytime something comes into the system, it's a little bit disruptive, right? And so when we know that and we can understand that, then we can have much more patience and tolerance in the process and acceptance when things are happening, and look at it as a learning opportunity for growth and development.

Mick Spiers: 48:58

Really powerful. Carol, there's two things that I was taking away there. The first one's a bit counter intuitive. So for people, I'm going to ask you to trust us on this one, which is around the humility and vulnerability. If you find yourself in a situation where, before you act, before you speak, you're asking yourself the question, oh, what will people think of me? Will I think less of me because I admit some kind of shortcoming? And the answer is exactly the opposite. People think more of you. When you stick up your hand and say, Hey, I don't know the answer, or hey, I got this wrong, but this is what I learned from it. People respect you more, not less more. And I think that limiting belief holds people back until they try it, and then they realize, well, Wow, I did admit a mistake, and the world didn't end. In fact, it got better, right? So it's it does feel counter intuitive. Step into it. Step into humility, step into vulnerability. The second part was also really powerful, Carol, which is if you are in a team where you've let things get away on you and things are not working as you would like, you may need to do a physical reset and get people together and say, Hey, things aren't going how we would like. We need to let go of the past, let go of any baggage. We're going to try again. We're going to reset, let that go and start, start afresh. Let's call it. But then there was also the compassion, the self compassion, Carol, that even with that, you're not going to get it right every day, but you need to keep trying. It won't go right every day. At the end of the day, look at what went well. Look at what didn't. Go well and then adapt and pivot again the next day. Don't stop don't give up. It won't go right every day. So give yourself the patience and the self compassion that it takes time. How does that sit with you?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 50:53

Yeah, absolutely. You know people love nothing more to realize that you're human like they are. So when you are vulnerable, and when you say, Listen, I made a mistake, or I misspoke, or, you know, I'm working on this. I'm learning how not to let my emotions get away from me. I'm trying to engage in more emotional regulation to really manage that. I know I have a tendency to do this, but I'm working on that people love nothing more to realize that, wow, you're human too, that you make mistakes too, that you're struggling with something too, that you're working on improving on something too, because it lets them know that they have permission to not only engage in that process themselves, but to be open about that as well, because it may be helpful to other people. So 100% that that is, is the process, and to definitely normalize it, the thing, the thing too, when you're going through this process and you're moving into a high performing group, you may find that some of your team members signed up for the other way they signed up for, you know, not having this to be responsible. They like going to you and you having all the answers. They don't want to have the accountability. They don't want to be problem solvers. They kind of like to be the ones that point out all the issues and not have a responsibility of trying to correct them. When you are creating, or CO creating what you want to create on your team, and you're setting the foundation for those values, those core values, those ground rules of how we operate. You know, what we're trying to create in terms of building a safe place, how we want to have radical candor, how we're bringing in these different kind of thoughts and methods and how we show up. It's an opportunity also, too, and I'm not encouraging that you don't give people options to change, try or make it work, but it's also an opportunity to invite people to join you in the process, or make decisions about whether or not this is really something they want to be a part of, which could also be a difficult conversation to have and a difficult thing to think about. But on the other side of that, I want you to consider that now maybe your hiring process changes. Maybe what you were initially looking for when you brought people onto your team shifts. So now you're looking for people who are fitting into the culture you're creating. In terms of the environment that you're creating, you're asking questions about how open people are to learning and engaging. How do they feel about making mistakes and failing? Are they open and vulnerable to sharing things that they're going through or working through? Do they have the capacity to be fluid and adaptable and resilient as things may change and innovate within a team, you may ask different questions that will make sure that you're continuing to grow and build that amazing team that you're trying to create to something that is just focused on. Can you do the job? Will you show up? And you know, here are the times you need to do it, so it'll become much more of an expansive process, even as you think about your hiring process and as you're promoting and inspiring other people on the team, to step into other things that we want to do beyond the team, but it really shifts how you show up and how you think about the people that you bring on.

Mick Spiers: 54:08

Yeah, really good, Carol. I have to say that I fall into this assumption sometimes that, you know, people want what I want. We're all different. We're all different. So having that open and transparent conversation about, hey, this is the team I'm creating here. This is the culture that I want allow people to say, well, that's not what I signed up for, and I'm going to go and work on a different team. I think that's very, very valid. And then when you do the recruiting process, be open and transparent about the team you're trying to create. And how does that sound? Is that sounds like something you'd like to be part of, yes or no, and we're not talking about them, the mission and the purpose. Now we're talking about ways of working and and the culture. We're going to say that's really powerful. Carol, all right, I feel like I could talk to you for 20, 27 hours and still be learning things, but we better draw it to a close. I'm going to bring it, bring us now to our Rapid Round. So what is the one thing you know now, Dr, Carol Parker Walsh, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 55:09

I wish I knew that my voice mattered. And as much as I thought of myself as someone who was very, you know, bold and audacious and courageous in how I showed up in the world, I realized that I was hesitant around really speaking up and sharing what was important to me, what was meaningful to me, because I have since learned by doing that it gives you greater opportunity for allow you to get the things that. You need and that you want in order for you to thrive, flourish and be successful. So that's one thing I would say to my 20 year old, which I say to my 25 year old all the time.

Mick Spiers: 55:52

Very good. Your voice does matter, and you do matter. I love it. What's your favorite book?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 55:58

Oh goodness, there are so many books I love. I love presence by Amy Cuddy. And I think in, you know, the that book comes to mind because I do think about showing up and and owning your space and feeling really valuable self, valuable about that, you know, having some value around that. So that, that's the first book that popped in my mind. There are so many books, but that's the first one that popped in my mind.

Mick Spiers: 56:24

We spoke about superpowers before Carol presence. Presence is a superpower. Okay, very good. What's your favorite quote?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 56:32

I'm gonna butcher this quote, but my absolute favorite quote is by F Scott Fitzgerald, and the my paraphrase of it is, I hope you're doing something that you love, but if you're not doing it, I hope you have the courage to go after what it is that you do love. So that's my interpretation of that. That is, I love that quote, because what it does is give you permission to change. It gives you the permission to if you're going down one road, you don't get into the sunk cost fallacy, but you know that there's always an opportunity. It's never too late. That's I think that's part of that in there too. It's never too late to make a change, and I hope you have the courage to make that change when it's time to do that.

Mick Spiers: 57:11

Absolutely wonderful Carol, there's going to be people in the audience that are completely enthralled with everything you've said today, and they may want to know more about you your work, they may want to take advantage of your services. How do people find you?

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 57:25

Well, the best place is to go to my website, which is www, dot Carol Parker, walsh.com, and that will lead you to all kind of places. I have blogs and articles, and I have, you know, courses and resources that are available, and it'll also lead you to my social media. I show up quite a bit on LinkedIn, if you want to find me there as well, but my website is the hub that if you go there, it'll take you to any other thing that you may want to learn or find out.

Mick Spiers: 57:54

Well, thank you so much. Dr Carol Parker, Bucha, once again, congratulations on your incredible career and your success and all that you do for people. Thank you so much for sharing the gift of your time, your wisdom and your insights. Today, I feel richer for this conversation, and I know the the audience will as well. Thank you so much.

Dr. Carol Parker Walsh: 58:14

Thank you for having me. This has been absolutely amazing.

Mick Spiers: 58:17

Wow. What an insightful conversation with Dr. Carol Parker Walsh, key takeaways, leaders must shift from being the expert to becoming a catalyst for their teams, a multiplier creating environments where individuals feel seen, heard and empowered to contribute. Dr. Walsh's insights on the power of vulnerability, transparency and co creation offer a clear path to transforming team dynamics and fostering high performance in the next episode of The Leadership Project, I'll be reflecting on today's interview Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project in a solo cast diving deeper into the practical steps you can mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team take to build a more people centered leadership approach. at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to Don't miss it. If you're getting great value from our content, subscribe to The Leadership Project, YouTube channel, where don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, channel. We can also catch the video podcasts and weekly Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care, look out for each other and join us on this journey as curated videos and our live stream show. we learn together and lead together.