203. Secrets of Persuasion with Adele Gambardella and Chip Massey

Unlock the secrets of persuasion and influence without stepping into manipulation with insights from crisis communication expert Adele Gambadella and ex-FBI hostage negotiator Chip Massey.

Together, they share their wisdom from their new book, "Convince Me," and break down a structured process for forensic listening, meeting people where they are, and finding common ground. Learn how their unique skills blend to create transformative training programs that are applicable in both business and personal life.

Discover how resilience, collaboration, and decisiveness played a crucial role in their journey, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic. Adele and Chip's partnership exemplifies how complementary skills can lead to success—Adele's quick iteration balancing Chip's meticulous planning. They delve into the power of addressing fears and limiting beliefs, guiding others through emotional transformations, and making decisive actions in high-pressure environments, drawing from their extensive backgrounds.

Dive into effective persuasion techniques in leadership, emphasizing the importance of shared values in negotiation and the practice of forensic listening. Adele and Chip explain how starting with a point of agreement and meeting people where they are can foster trust and influence. By honing the art of active listening, recognizing unstated narratives, and crafting convincing arguments through understanding, you'll be equipped to build lasting connections and achieve desired outcomes.

Engage more deeply with The Leadership Project and transform the way you connect and lead.

🌐 Connect with Adele and Chip:
• Website: https://convincingcompany.com/
• Adele's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adelegambardella/
• Chip's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chip-massey-23787b106/
• Adele's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adele_gambardella/
• Chip's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chipjmassey/

📚 You can purchase their book at Amazon:
• Convince Me: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BZWMSXDQ/

Business & Society with Senthil Nathan

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Chapters

• 0:00 Convince Me
• 4:19 Resilience, Collaboration, and Decisiveness
• 8:48 [Ad] Business & Society with Senthil Nathan
• 9:36 (Cont.) Resilience, Collaboration, and Decisiveness
• 12:24 Effective Persuasion Techniques in Leadership
• 17:14 Influencing Through Shared Values
• 23:33 Active Listening for Lasting Connections
• 28:25 [Ad] Virtual Rockstar
• 29:16 (Cont.) Active Listening for Lasting Connections
• 35:15 Uncovering the Unstated Narrative
• 46:02 Crafting Convincing Arguments Through Understanding
• 51:32 Wisdom and Insight From Adele Gambardella and Chip Massey
• 56:34 Promoting The Leadership Project and Community Involvement

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:00

There is a fine line between influence and persuasion and manipulation. Leadership is all about inspiring people into meaningful action because they want to do it, not because they are told to do it. In today's episode of The Leadership Project, I am joined by crisis communication expert Adele Gambardella and ex FBI hostage negotiator, Chip Massey, we are celebrating their new book Convince Me. Adele and Chip share their structured process for convincing people through the art of forensic listening, meeting people where they are and finding common ground. We unpack the art of persuasion without it feeling like manipulation. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I've got a real special treat here today. We have a two for one deal. We have two two special guests with us. We have Adele gambadella And Chip Massey. They are co founders of an organization called the convincing company. And what they run these wonderful training programs called training so good, it's criminal. Now I wonder where that name comes from. Well, Adele is an expert in crisis communication and a contributor to The Wall Street Journal, and chip is an ex FBI hostage negotiator, and now the co authors of a new book called Convince Me and that's what we're going to unpack today. We're going to unpack what it means to convince people, to influence, to persuade them, and to use some of the real life skills that chip and Adele have learned in their career and how we can apply them into the business world and into your daily lives for that matter. So really excited about today's conversation. I know that I'm going to learn something really special from this, and I know that you will as well. So without any further ado, Adele and Chip, I would love it if you would share a little bit about your background, and what I'm really curious to know is how the two of you found each other so Adele, let's start with you.

Adele Gambardella: 2:02

Sure. So I had my own public relations firm, crisis agency, for about 15 years prior to meeting chip, and I decided that I kind of got, I kind of got sick of managing my 15 person firm. It was exhausting. It was all I was doing, was managing people. I wanted to get back to the work, so I decided, serendipitously, right before covid, to go and to do more book, writing, training, speaking, that kind of thing. I go to an entrepreneurial dinner, and chip is there, and I'm like, wow, it would be so cool if our two skill sets were put together, I bet we would make a dynamo team. And then I heard him talking, and I'm like, wow, this is really interesting. I think people would like our our two skill sets put together, and then I'll let chip tell them, tell them.

Chip Massey: 2:53

Yes. So here's what happens. Mick, right again, I'm a former, you know, government employee, right? Special Agent, house negotiator and and I'm recently, you know, retired, when I met Adele, and so she said, Yeah, we should talk the we obviously have some overlap, and there'd be some interesting stuff we could do. So we started talking, and Adele's asking me a bunch of questions about what I did in the FBI and how, you know, what I learned to Quantico with Haas negotiation. How I use that in the field.

Adele Gambardella: 3:23

Interrogating him basically.

Chip Massey: 3:25

Yeah, right. Put your room on the tables there, right? And then at some point, she goes, Okay, I think we have enough. Now, I said, enough. What? She goes, Okay, here's what we're going to do. This is, this is actually August, right? So five years from this month, right? She goes, we're going to put on a masterclass. I went, Okay, and we're going to have it in New York City, yeah, she goes, and we're going to do it in three months. All right, okay, hold what? So that's, in fact, what happened, right? Dale, again, you know part of her experience and background is in PR, she knew how to market this, And so sure enough, three months later, Mick, we have her masterclass going. It's sold out. We're pushing in chairs to for more people and do the same thing again in DC. So that was my whirlwind introduction to Adele.

Adele Gambardella: 4:25

And then I have to say this, and then covid hits, covid hits. And we're like, great. So the whole in person event thing seems to have gone by the wayside. And I'm like, let's not waste this time. I was like, why don't we write a book? Why don't we collaborate on writing a book, and so that's really where the book came from.

Mick Spiers: 4:44

I love the resilience and resourcefulness of that for you to pivot and go, Well, it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity to focus and write a book beyond that. Two other things that I love there. One thing we talk about often is about finding people that have got complimentary skills. And surrounding yourself with someone that can complement and balance the skills that you bring to the table. So what I'm seeing there, Adele, is you being very confident in your own skill set, but then having the eye to see that chip skill set is also very special, and that one plus one can equal three. And that's what I see in front of me is two people that do even before we start the show, sharing some backstage tips here. Adele giving chip different tips about about the interview and how to set up. It's, it's knowing your skill set, knowing what you bring to the table, seeing something special in the other person. And then one plus one equals three. I think it's, I think it's very special. And the other part of that is the perceptiveness for you to then, you know, once off meeting with Chip, to be able to go, Ah, there's something special here. But not only is there something special here, to have the confidence to then go, and this is what we're going to do about it, Chip, this is what we're going to talk about it. That's, that's pretty amazing. So how did it come off to you chip to have someone that could see something special very quickly, but want to act on it immediately?

Chip Massey: 6:10

Yeah, foreign to me, right? Because in in the in the FBI, it's all about planning, you know, when we have the opportunity, we're going to plan, you know, down to the tiniest detail, whether that's interviews, you know, going out on a rest, whatever it's planning. So, but Adele did a lot of the planning. She just iterated so much faster. And what I thought would have taken a year, she goes now three months is enough. So that included, you know, the IP that included, you know, finding the space and then selling the course itself, the whole masterclass. So, yeah.

Mick Spiers: 6:44

Yeah, there's a couple of things I'm taking away there. First of all, we talk about this on the show quite often as well, that fear and limiting beliefs kill more dreams than failure ever did. And what I see there in Adele, you could have missed that opportunity. You could have gone, oh, that was an interesting conversation, and then reached out to chip six months later, and then you've lost six months. Or you might have kicked yourself going, Oh, why didn't I say something to that guy at that at that event that we went to, you didn't let regret come in. You just went, I see something here, and I'm going to step forward so overcoming any fear or limiting beliefs, right there and then, what I see is also the decisiveness. And I imagine in some of the environments that both of you get in Adele, whether it's crisis communication or chip you're in that pressure cooker environment of a hostage negotiation, the decisiveness making an action has to be better sometimes than inaction. Tell me what role this decisiveness comes into both your work? Let's start with you on this one chip.

Chip Massey: 7:49

Yeah, and that's really it, Mick. Right? It is it that comes from your your training, right? We always say you rise to the occasion, but you fall back on your training. It's so true, right? In all military parlance and and and business, you know, we will fall back to our default. So having that, you know, for me, my background in that experience, knowing what a crisis is like, finding and working with other people within a high functioning team in that kind of, you know, high pressure situation, with that kind of stress, you understand it, you you it's kind of part of the culture. It's part of who you are as an as an agent, Haas negotiator. So all those things give you the ability to move quickly, and you know what to do, when to do it, and that's the same thing that I saw in Adele. But I'll let I'll let her speak to it.

Speaker: 9:28

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Adele Gambardella: 10:14

Yeah. So, so the one thing I would say is, when I met chip, what I recognize in his skill set, many things, but the idea that, like I know when I was working with executives in crisis communications, and I was very proficient at it, I was successful at it. And I've got people through a lot of crises, but it was a lot of times, like pulling teeth. It was like the divorce light. Lawyer showing up at the office right to say, Adele's here. What did we do? Whereas, when I brought chip on, he helped people really accept more of the changes. He helped them go through a more emotional transformation. And not just like do these five things, because your crisis depends on you doing these five things, but taking them through the emotional journey of like, do this one thing, because it's going to leave here, right chip. I mean, I just think that was, that was a missing piece because we're not taught how to do that in business school. This is the interesting thing that's sort of missing in a lot of people's leadership abilities is we know how to do it, but do we know how to get other people to do what we want? That is an entirely different skill set most of us are not taught, and it's a missing element that you know, after chip came into my firm, people were so much more likely to want to do what we were telling them to do. Because he took them along and said, We understand your fearing here. We understand this is unfair. We you know, and it was a lot of listening, deescalation, moving people to decision, and that's just something a lot of us are just not taught how to do.

Mick Spiers: 11:58

There's two really powerful threads there Adele that I'd like to unpack. That the first one is there is a process there. I'm hearing a process. I'm hearing steps, but I'm hearing that we ignore emotion at our peril, including fear, right? So people, people acknowledge fear at a much greater rate than what they acknowledge some kind of gain. So they they fear fear more than they appreciate gain. And if we ignore those emotions, we're not going to be influential. We're not going to be able to convince people. So there might be a process there, and when I picture and forgive us chip most people, even everyone listening to the show, and I'm going to say Thank God on this one, most people, their experience with hostage negotiations comes from Hollywood's movies. So forgive us if we make some really bad assumptions, but we think about it as being a process, but at the heart of it are human beings, and human beings are emotional creatures. So that was the first thread. Then the second thread is that we are trying to influence people to do something because they want to do it, not because they are told to do it, which is almost our very definition of leadership here at The Leadership Project, to inspire people in the meaningful action around a worthy cause because they wanted to do it, not because they were told to do it. And that's at the heart of Convince Me, in my view, is that ability to get it, get people to do it because they wanted to do it, not because they were told to do it. How does that sit with both you start with you on on that one, Adele.

Adele Gambardella: 13:37

Yeah. I mean, I think that that's 100% accurate. You know, I think we can all agree that that is an excellent place to start, right? I mean, if it's not someone else's idea, and it's your idea, they feel cajoled, tricked, manipulated. You know, there's some like Machiavellian aspect of what you're doing there, and instead, what you want to do is move people down a continuum, what we call the convincing continuum. And there's a process to do that, and the one is to start with your point of agreement. You never want to start with your strongest point first, because if you start with your strongest point first, what happens, people will just dig their heels in to whatever their belief already was before you started. But in journalism, I mean, I started my career in journalism, they always say, start with your strongest point. First. It's the lead. It's the who, what, where, when and why, and then just and then pull the information down that's least important in a convincing strategy or conversation at work or even in your personal life, you should start with your point of agreement. We can all agree in one area, and then move them down. And what you want to use is this other technique called Fun, fear, uncertainty and doubt. Now, many of us have heard that term before, right, but you want to use it in a strategic way to unfreeze people's cognitive biases. Because they're frozen, right? They're frozen in whatever their belief was before you started talking to them. And if you think you can just walk in and be like, here's the point, you should change your mind. That's just not gonna work. So start with a point of agreement. Understand their fears about the issue, understand their uncertainties, their doubts. What's holding them back from believing what you believe. Maybe it's facts, maybe they're emotionally tied to it. Whatever that technique is, you walk them down the continuum. And here's the interesting thing, you have to leave them with something that they go research themselves, and you have to have the. Discipline to stop and not take them all the way to their latitude of rejection, but you have to go, Listen, go, go, go, do some more research about this. Check out this blog on it. Check out this wonderful podcast that you that you can listen to about this subject. And you have to let them start to do their own research, do their own thinking, and then when they come back to you, they're more open to your ideas and your perspective than maybe before. So it's a discipline, though you have to stop, and most people don't want to stop.

Mick Spiers: 16:12

That sounded like, almost like a masterclass in three minutes there, Adele, and there's some really key things I picked up there. One is, if it sounds like their idea that they're going to build so much more ownership than if it was your idea, I love that. The second part was this continuum that is a journey. It's it's not a one and done, and you can't go to the answer in one go. And one of the things I want to share back there. Adele, if this is a really big idea, it might be that you've been thinking about this idea for six months, but they're hearing about it for the first time. There it is. So not only do we need to start with common ground on something that we both agree on, we also need to meet them where they are, not where you are, because you've been thinking about it for six months. Chip, it sounds like that resonated with you. Tell me more about this continuum?

Chip Massey: 17:06

Oh, exactly, right. And, and we know you've, you know you've worked in this spaces as well. Mick, and familiar with this stuff. But the idea of starting where somebody is is is so important, right? Not where you are, not where you want them to be, but where they are. It so often. And whether you're a sales leader or you're, you're, you're working in client acquisition, whatever that is, you know, everyone has a desire to get that person up to speed quickly, like you were saying, and, okay, we got it. You gotta, let's go sign, you know, buy whatever it is. But they're not there yet. And and you need to be patient, and you need to bring them along. It's like one of the things that we always say is that, for myself as a hostage negotiator, negotiations really is kind of a misnomer in that in that world, it wasn't. I never negotiated with a person. My job was to convince that person to value what I valued. So they might have started out Mick with I want $20 million and a jet like Uh huh. But by the end of that, it's, it's going to be about, how do I get out of this with my life? You know, that's what they're asking me. That's what they become dependent upon me for. You know, in the very beginning, it's something else entirely, but it so, it's never a give and take about, Okay, how about 15 million and you know, a prop plane, you know, something like that. It's never going to be that. It's never going to be are you got seven people in there? Tell you what? Kill three. Give me back four. Call it a day. Never. So. So my job is to get that person to value safety, to get to value their life and the people's lives around them and to surrender to me, but it's like you were saying, it's a process. It's a definite process to make that shift in their minds.

Mick Spiers: 19:10

I love this Chip, so the big takeaway there for me was convince them to value the things that I value. But it is a continuing you're not going to get there in one go. And what I'm playing in my mind the whole time you're talking there is that I could apply this technique. And here's one for everyone listening at home, but I'm testing this with you at the same time. This could be something from the macro level all the way through to something really major and important. So I'm going to the micro level. Might be something like this. It could be, hey, team, we all agree that no one wants to work this weekend, right, right? So exactly, I'm about to convince them towards some kind of course of action that will lead us to maybe doing some harder work now, some extra hours or whatever, so that we don't have to work this weekend. But what I've done is I've started with something we all agree on. No one wants to work this weekend, right? So that's the example on the micro, and the macro is your example, or the big story is yours chip, and it is a misnomer, this word negotiation with hostage. I'm glad that you brought that up. But what the values are here is you, we all agree you want to get out of this. Live right, and we all agree we don't want to destroy this family's all of these families, lives of the people that you've held hostage. Do we agree on that kind of thing? So I'm I'm seeing this meet them where they are. I'm seeing this find the common ground, and then we can work from there. How does that reflection of that micro all the way through to the big stuff. Adele, How does that sit with you?

Adele Gambardella: 20:43

Yeah, I mean, that's totally correct. I mean, you never want to walk into a meeting and throw out, you know, all of your ideas all at once, because people like you said you could be thinking about it for six months a year, many years, and you walk in, you alienate people, because all they're going to do is go. I don't believe that, so now I'm recounting all the ways at which I think you're wrong instead of listening right. So this point of agreement is really, really key.

Mick Spiers: 21:14

Now I want to work towards listening, but there's one more thing that you said before Adele, that I want to unpack, and that is where it becomes manipulation. So how can we make sure we I'm going to say, check our own motives even before we start. But in using the techniques that we're going to talk about, how do we make sure that it doesn't come across that we're trying to coerce or manipulate people instead of Inspire, persuade and convince them.

Adele Gambardella: 21:41

So what we always say is you can use a hammer to build a house or to break break a window. It depends on your intent, right? So I think what you have to think about is, what is your intention behind your convincing strategies. All of these strategies can be used for good or they can be used for bad. It just really depends on your intent going in. It's it's not manipulative. If you're moving people to a solve that you believe in, that you believe will have their best interests in mind. And certainly, yeah, people have used this for for ill intent, of course. But you know, we hope that no one listens, listening we'll be doing that, or we'll send Chip after you. No kidding.

Mick Spiers: 22:23

All right, keywords, he said there is that you have their interest in mind, or a collective interest, not It's not self serving. And yes, the first one would be to check your own motives to make sure you're not being self serving. And then you've also got to use, I'm going to use the word there, convince them that what you're talking to them about is in their interest, not just in your interest. Okay, I love it, and I think this is where some of the trust and the bond starts building. And for me, this all has to start with listening, which is what we were hinting towards before. And you have in your book this wonderful term forensic listening. We've all heard of active listening before. Some of us have heard of deep listening. What is forensic listening?

Chip Massey: 23:07

Yeah, so forensic listening is simply the study and analysis of a conversation after it's happened, because we say words leaves clues. So if you think about this, and what we ask people to do when we teach this, and what you know we've taught in this, this concept across so many different businesses and spectrums, like an international bank, for example, is using this technique throughout their their company. And it's simply this. It is. It is listening in four respects, and that is through emotion that the person is presenting the themes they're developing, their body positioning and their voice, their pitch, tone and cadence. So, so what we mean if we're to unpack just each one just a little bit, so that your your listeners can get an idea of what this is and and you can absolutely implement this right now in any conversation that you have. So the first is, let's talk about the emotion. What is it that the person that you're talking to or is engaged in a conversation. It's in a meeting. Let's say it's a client call it's it's a lecture, whatever it is, what emotion seems to be predominant as they're speaking on that topic? And the next thing you want to look at is, now, what themes are they developing? You know, it could be. The idea here is that if somebody repeats something more than once, it's important to them, and it should be doubly important to you if you're trying to establish a connection to this person. So you need to write that down. What themes are you hearing? The other is the body position, and what we say in this make is that, you know, we're all creatures of movement, you know, and how we interact in our world. So if, if the person you know, let's say it's a potential client, is in front of you and and you notice that they're kind of just like low level, you know, just talking, but when they get on this specific theme, you you're hearing that emotion attached to it. And now, right, they're more animated. You see their hands moving. You see their their head shaking, right? You're picking some things up. You're like, okay, that's important. And the other is their voice, and we all know it, right, when we're excited about something, or the rapidity of, you know, of words and the the the pace, the the tone, every. Everything kind of increases as as we're excited. So we're we're looking at the body language. They're leaning in, right? They're very excited by this, and you might see more hand movement, or they're again, whatever that is, theme development. What is it that they're talking about and repeating about? And now you've got an idea about what that conversation is about, and it may not be the reason why they came to you, right? You thought the meeting was about. What is it that your product can do for me? What is it that your service can do for us? But what they're really getting to you notice as as they're repeating some things, is how dependable Are you? Are you the kind of person that just kind of fades out when things get rough and or we have an issue with deliverables, and you're not around and I can't get a hold of you. So those are the kind of things, if you put them together, you actually are pulling out something that's different from the intention of the meeting originally. And what you can do with that, Mick is, let's say, two weeks from now, yeah, after you've had that meeting, you go back to that person. Because you've taken notes. You figured it out what it is.

Adele Gambardella: 26:44

This is that implementation thing that everybody who's listening should definitely pay attention.

Chip Massey: 26:49

Yeah, yeah.

Adele Gambardella: 26:49

Yeah.

Chip Massey: 26:50

And, and now you're going to say, we call this targeted validation. You now you're going to say that person, you know, I've been thinking about our conversation, and right off the bat, just that statement alone puts you, you know, in the top 10% of people in their world, because who listens at that level and is willing to say something back to that person about that that they've been thinking, how flattering is that? Right? That's marvelous. We all love to hear that that are that our words and our conversations have have had an impact on somebody. And the next thing you're going to say is, you know, I know we were meeting about, you know, what our service could do for you and your company, but I got a sense that, you know, you were really searching in and maybe you had a bad experience with with a past vendor who wasn't as wasn't dependable in the way that you needed. Am I close on that? Boom, and then what you use that for is when they're like, Yeah, that's a big deal. You're like, you know, I heard you, and I just want you to know that. Went back to my team and I said, you know, it doesn't matter when the that we have the best product or we have the best service out there, if our client can't depend on us to be there through the thick and thin, we're no good. So I asked my entire team to double down on that concept and to let people know and to show our track record and to show them that were there. I mean, that's huge, right? That it, first of all, you're telling that person what you said resonated inside of me. I then did something about that. I went back to my team, we did some we did some talking, and now you're expressing it to that person, how, how incredible that is, right? Is that is because attention. Mick, you know this attention is such a precious thing, and when we can give that to another person, we are now we're in the top 1% because we've told them your value. I've I value your time. I value what you're saying, and I'm willing to, you know, to extrapolate on that and to bring it back to my company. And here's what I learned.

Speaker: 29:46

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Mick Spiers: 30:33

So Chip, I've been thinking about our conversation. Sorry. It's true, because everyone wants to feel seen, everyone wants to feel heard, they want to feel like they matter. And it's the deepest form of respect to be able to listen to someone, but to truly unpick and to be curious, show the curiosity that you're not just listening to the words that you're listening to. You use this term in your book as well the unstated narrative. What's, what's the story behind this conversation that maybe isn't being said, but you're getting curious to find out what the real story is. And the words of Stephen Covey are screaming in my head. You seek, first to understand, then to be understood. So you're using these forensic listening skills to truly understand what is going on in that person's world. The words are a clue, but the other clues that that emotion. What's the emotion in the room right now? What are the themes? What are the topics that keep on repeating? And then what, what's happening with the energy? And the energy could be the body position, it could be the tone of the voice. Oh, that, that topic there. That's really important. And if I, if I do use the word negotiation here, on purpose. Now you're also going to get clues chip on where there might be room to move because on the on the words, or the part of the narrative where they're quite calm and relaxed, and yeah, who cares about that? There might be something there that you can negotiate as a trade where, okay, this topic didn't seem so important to them. This topic did seem important to them. And then the art of negotiation is the ability to trade, to be able to give them what they want in exchange for something that you want, and to unlock value in that conversation. But we can't do it. We can't unlock value in the conversation unless we're forensic listening. How does that sit with you? I'd like to hear your views on that, Adele.

Adele Gambardella: 32:37

Yeah, I love this concept, and this was really something we put together based on chips. You know, 22 years as a special agent and hostage negotiator. I mean, you read, you use the skill set, the skill set every day, Chip, right when you, when you work with people. And I think, you know, there's a great quote by Victor Khan who said a negotiator should be obsessively listening. You should be both Sherlock Holmes and Sigmund Freud as you're as you're listening to people. And it's really true, right? I mean, I think that this framework that is based on chips, you know, extensive experience in the field also applies to business. I mean, most of us do not get listened to at this level who do not get validated on this level. And you can absolutely be the top 1% of the people who were in that meeting. You're probably the only one who took it away that level of interest, attention, respect, like you said, it's the highest form of respect. So when you go back, your level of relation, of relations, like with, you know, with different really, I'm sorry. Can I say this? Why could that? Say that? I'm sorry. So when you go back and you talk to the other person about what happened at that meeting, your relationship is so much more secure than anyone else who attended it. And they'll remember you. They'll bring you into other meetings. They will all of a sudden, opportunities just seem to come to you because people want to be in a room with people who listen to them.

Mick Spiers: 34:13

Yeah, and you use this term in your book as well, a lasting bond. I think you're, you're starting to get that lasting bond when you when the other person really feels that they have been listening to and that you showed the respect of curiosity, which is where we're following this year, you're not you're not just listening to them, they go, Oh, tell me more about that. That's that seemed important to you. What makes that important to you to unpack your curiosity, not not just your ears, unpack your curiosity?

Adele Gambardella: 34:42

Yeah, huge. Very, very impactful for people. And most people never get that throughout their entire career. Heck, we may not even get that at home, right? So, I mean, like so if you show this level of deep listening and understanding of forensic listening, you're going to be so much more convincing, so much more effective than anyone else who didn't do it. So the competitive advantages are huge.

Mick Spiers: 35:07

Okay, all right, really good. Now I want to pack up unpack two sub skills that we've kind of danced around a little bit here, chip you mentioned around patience before. Now I'm going to throw something out there for both of you to comment on. One of the things that can be very difficult, particularly for people that I'm going to say are problem solvers, is if we act too fast, we're solving the wrong problem. So if I'm going to go into a leadership role here, if one of our team members has come to us with a problem. If we don't show the patients in our forensic listening, we might start solving the problem before they've really got to what the real problem was. Because there's a there's a good chance, as I'm sharing my own bias here a little bit, but there's a good chance that when they first come to you, the first thing that comes out their mind, out of their mouth, they're just warming up, and they're testing you to see if you're ready to listen and the real issue they got in their back pocket. But they're just testing you, and if you interrupt and start solving the first thing, you haven't got to the real problem. So tell me, and I want some real, practical guidance here for the leaders listening to the show. How can we you to be more patient to make sure we've uncovered the real problem before we start going into a co creation mode of solving the problem Chip, let's start with you on that one.

Chip Massey: 36:31

Sure. So one of the things that we say when we do our immersive training is no problem solving allowed. It's, it's part of the skill set, right and and again, that was that comes from haas's negotiation experience. That is, you know, we are like you just well said, Mick, we are problem solvers. Anyone in a leadership position is a problem solver. We want to get to whatever that is that's going to reduce the pain, frustration, cost, get to it. The the issue with that is that you have to allow the person, just like you said, to bring you along on what is really at play. You have to assume that that the first words like you said are not at the crux of it. There's more to the story. There's always more to the story. And so that's one of the things that we suggest, is you employ forensic listening, but you also want to do what we call the unstated narrative. And the unstated narrative is the disconnect between what somebody actually believes about you, what they have you know, in their head, and what they're willing to say to your face. So we, we all have that. We have to have that in our society today. Otherwise, right there, there would be mass violence out there, but, but if you can understand another person, and when we say that, what we're saying is, if you can get close to what those hold backs are, what what they might be reticent about, why they're not willing to sign just yet, or as as you said, team member comes in, leadership comes into you and and there's a problem, but you feel like there's more to the story. So what are you going to do? You're going to ask more questions. You're going to ask them to tell you, right? Instead of going in. And we all have people that talk over us, right? We've all known that person that says, yeah, here's here's my idea, here's what we're going to do, and they've just completely marginalized us. Well, this is your chance to bring that person in and to, you know, show one that you value them their time and what they have to say, and you're going to ask better questions, instead of saying, Okay, what's the problem? Let's get down to brass tacks. But part of that is that discovery of what is that hold back and it might be completely different. It's like, one of the things I've said is, Okay, what if you've got a team member and a high functioning team and you've noticed they're off their game, they're just, they're not performing like they used to. Their numbers are horrible. You know? They're not making the calls, they're showing up late, leaving early. Go to that person, you're saying, hey, you know, there's, there's a couple bosses that we could kind of like say, in this situation, uses avatars. The other one is like, hey, get your act together, or you're gone, right? Or the other boss is like, you know, I've just noticed something, and I'm not, you know, coming at you from a confrontational point here, but what I'm trying to understand is that there's a difference in your performance, and I'm and I'd like to get down to it, because you're a high performer, but it's not showing up. And what, you know, what might have been like? Yeah, I'm distracted, you know what? Whatever. I'm going to get back to a boss. Don't worry about just off my game. But if you've got the boss who's listening with empathy and who's willing to, you know, be tough and fair, then they're going to come at that person from a different perspective. And what you've you possibly could find out is that, you know, he's dealing with a sick parent at home who has dementia and and it's and Alzheimer's is in effect, and they're they're struggling to try to find care for them. And there's reasons, in other words, right? Some people, okay, they you know, they're just not performing and they need to change. But other people, there might be a better reason for it.

Mick Spiers: 40:33

Really good tip, and there's a few things I take away from that one. First one is to think about, we've all had leaders on that spectrum from the very directive through to the curious and empathetic. Think about how that felt. Think about how that felt when you're on the receiving end. And that might be a little hint to you as to who do you want to be. How do you want to show up? Do you want to be the one that's directive and doesn't show any empathy. Or do you want to be the one that is curious and shows empathy and gets to the real challenge for the person? And I know which one I want to be, so that's a question for you all to ask yourself. Then chip in in asking these better questions that you're talking about and showing that curiosity, that's what we're really trying to get to, is. Is the real challenge? Not what is being said, but what is the real challenge? Because everyone has this filter that you're talking about. We all walk around with a filter on in terms of what we say and what we think. How do we then unpack that so that we can get to what the real challenge was? And my curiosity that I want to follow here chip is quite often. It could be something related to identity or ego. So this is my question for you, is, how do we then get to that where the real challenge for them may not be the action that we're about to take or the deal that we're about to sign? It might be, what does that say about them? What does it say about them as a human being if they agree to this action or they agree to this deal. So now we're getting to identity, Ego and the emotion of what's not being said. How does that sit with you, Chip?

Chip Massey: 42:11

Yes, no, exactly. Is that you you have to create the space that makes that person feel okay to share that. So let you know. One of the things it was interesting, we were at a conference, and I was listening to person that had a lot of experience negotiation, negotiating with unions. You know, that's that's a tough world. And she said that she noticed that during this one negotiation that her counterpart was, you know, in the second third day, it just seemed to have this different personality, you know, things were moving along. Things were going okay. And on this, this third day, you know, she noticed that he was distracted. He was like, you know, constantly looking at his cell phone, and he'd look at it, you know, and then kind of slam it down and kept checking it, and, you know, just clearly things were, weren't going well, and he was being obstinate, whereas before there was, there was a lot of movement. And so she said, you know, as realizing there wasn't much going on and it was kind of being fruitless. She goes, You know what? Let's stop early today. Let's just, let's just take a beat and we'll, we'll come back at it fresh tomorrow. And the guy like, got up immediately and zipped out of the room. She thought, oh God, you know, maybe, you know, I've lost him. You know, he just does not care. He's not coming back. Well, he comes back the next day. And he's a changed man. I you know, he's, we're moving on things. They were, they were deciding, well, it was, it was concessions being made, you know? And there was a positivity the war wasn't before, after it's all done and signed. She goes over the guy and says, Listen, I just gotta know, you know, the other day, I just didn't think I was getting through to you and and that, you know, that we hit a wall. I'm just curious what, what happened? Oh, he said, You know, I my daughter, had a soccer game that night, and I knew that I was going to miss yet another game of hers, and it was just so inferior to me. And I knew I was blowing it as a as a dad, and I didn't want to be that person. But the fact that, you that let us go early, I, you know, I was able to be there and be a hero. And it was great. So, you know, hey, thank you for that, by the way. And, and she's and she was like, and what, the method she use him? And it was interesting is that she said she kind of used this kind of like out of floating above the conference table, and she said, I just saw him and and how how like distracted he was, and how often he was looking at a cell phone, and something didn't add up. So that's why I chose to break it that early. But it made all the difference. You know, it's, it's allowing the space.

Mick Spiers: 45:04

I'm going to double down here on this word curiosity, because we spoke before. We're talking about reading the emotion, reading the themes, reading the shifts in energy, whether it's body language or tone and and we were picking up the signals. But here the power of the curiosity is to make sure that we're not mere straightening the signals, because the signal that they might be giving may not be related to the topic we're talking about. It might be completely left field. Or it could be that the real challenge for them is some kind of assumption that they're built in their head, that if we don't bring that assumption to the the foreground, we can't challenge that assumption. They might be worried about something that is just not true, but if it's stuck in their head, and it's not out in the open, we we can't unpack it. We can't unpack it together. So the curiosity, it's not just reading the signals and the shifts in energy that we're talking about. It's getting curious. Okay, what was that? Why was he checking his phone every two minutes? Why was he agitated on his seat? Had nothing to do with the content of what we're talking about. It was his daughter's soccer game. Yeah, really interesting. What? Unpack one more, and then we probably need to get to our Rapid Round. And Adele, I'm going to come. Towards you on this one. How do we make sure that confirmation bias isn't kicking in here? And I'm going to go double barrel here. One is that when we're doing this forensic listening to make sure that we're not only hearing what we want to hear, that's number one. And second would be, if we see the other person is also having some kind of confirmation bias. They're only hearing what they want to hear. How do we check these biases at the door to make sure that the listening is is deep enough to get to the real issues?

Adele Gambardella: 46:57

I mean, I think self awareness and knowing what type of a convincer you are and what type of a convincer they are, I think, and it's a very basic formula to think about it, and it almost sounds too simple, but I don't think it is. I think if you just make this one observation, you could be so much better than most people, which is, if I'm an if I'm an emotional person who's talking to a fact based person. If I come in with all emotion, or I or I load the conversation with emotion, the fact based person gets turned off. They're not going to even listen to what I have to say. But if I go, You know what I'm I think I'm dealing with an engineer, maybe a person who is more of a CPA, and they like more facts and stats and research. When I come into a conversation, and I start the conversation with this fact based approach, because I know that's what they like, they're going to be more swayed by my argument if I need to make an emotional argument at the end. So I think what we want to do is, in order to avoid not getting to the heart of how somebody wants to be convinced is we've got to know ourselves. Hey, I'm going to come at this from an emotional standpoint, or I'm going to come at this from a fact based standpoint. Or who am I talking to? We all have biases, right? I have a bias. I have a pressure preference. If you tell me a story, a heartwarming story, I'm more likely to be convinced if you told me a bunch of facts and stats. And I'm sure nobody on this calls or on this listening to this podcast would be surprised by that, right? Because I seem like you know, an emotional person. So if you came out to me with stats, stats, I might just go, I'm not really interested. My confirmation bias goes on immediately because I'm like you don't think like me. You don't look at the world like me. We don't see things the same way. So just making that one little tweak, confirmation biases are hard. We have them. They have them. So if you can just observe, how do they want to be convinced, what is likely going to guide the conversation, get them to buy into what I have to say. That's going to give you a lot of good information, and it can just make you so much more convincing than most people.

Mick Spiers: 49:12

Yeah, I love this Adele, and it's another form of meeting them where they're at. So having the self awareness to understand my style, but then having the curiosity to understand the other person's style, and then meeting their energy with with something that they're going to be receptive to. Could be anything. It could be someone that's a, you know, a no nonsense they want to get to the crux of the issue immediately, versus someone that would love to go for a coffee with you and have a have a deep chat about it, right? So matching them, matching their energy and matching their preferred style.

Adele Gambardella: 49:50

And making many times, you can find out what that style is just by listening to how they handle small talk. Zach, these convincers hate small talk. Really don't like emotional people. They want to. They want to do the small talk all day long.

Mick Spiers: 50:05

Love it. All right. All right. Look, this has been an amazing conversation. I'm going to bring us to our Rapid Round in a moment. I want to summarize a few really key takeaways for people around this whole concept around convincing and meeting people where they're at. Let's find the common ground. What is something that we can agree on from the outset, and then we can work from there. And that is a continuum. It's not a one and done. You can't necessarily rush this. You need to be patient. Find some common ground, meet them where they are and work from there. And then we go into this forensic listening. We're looking for words that leave clues as to what's going on here. What are the themes that keep on repeating? Where did the energy shift, whether it was body position, through to tone of language? And then we're getting curious. When we're not just trying to read the signals, we're getting curious about the signals. Oh, that seemed important. Tell me more about that. And now we're going to get to the point where the person truly feels heard, that they feel seen, that they feel valued, and now they're ready to build that bond with you, where you can start working towards some kind of CO created solution. So it's working with the other person. Me. Meeting them where they're at, following your curiosity, seek, first to understand, then to be understood. And then we're on our way towards a influential and convincing argument around some kind of collective course of action. And if it comes across like it's their idea, they're going to take so much ownership in the an investment in the eventual actions that are going to precipitate from this. And we're looking for, always looking for the unstated narrative. What's not being said? Is it something that's got nothing to do with today's conversation that's playing on the person's head? Or is it something that hasn't been addressed, and until we address it, they're not convinced, because they've still got this nagging doubt in their mind that hasn't been brought to the fore, and unless we're curious, we're not going to unpack that. It's going to stay as an inner narrative inside their mind that's going to prevent them from taking action, unless we can bring it to the surface. And I'm going to say something that both of you hinted towards the skills that we're talking about in today's discussion team. This is 1% stuff. This is 1% the 1% of people in the world can do this. And if you can master this, you're going to go to the top of the ladder for these people that want to do business with you, that want to have personal relationships with you that want to follow you as a leader, if you can unpack these skills. All right, so chip and Adele, I've absolutely loved this conversation. I want to now take us to our Rapid Round. These are the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. And Adele, I'll start with you. What's so no go. What's the one thing you know now that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Adele Gambardella: 53:05

Oh, God. There's so much to that. I think that I will be a success. I think you spend so much of your 20s just worrying whether or not you're gonna make it. Yeah.

Mick Spiers: 53:20

Yeah. Good one. All right, thank you, Adele. And I mean, all of that anxiety doesn't change anything, right? So,

Adele Gambardella: 53:25

No, it doesn't help.

Mick Spiers: 53:27

Alright.

Adele Gambardella: 53:27

Yeah.

Mick Spiers: 53:28

Chip, what's the one thing you know now that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Chip Massey: 53:30

And I think that's it. It's simply, it's okay not to know everything you know. I when I first, like, when I first started in the bureau, it was, it was crushing to be new, because that you're surrounded by all these older, experienced agents, and they ask you, it's like, so how many years in you have? And if you know, I was, like, under a year I, you know, I would mumble, I was say different things, you know, but I have experience on the outside of other things. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay not to know it and asking questions like you're in like the concept you keep touching back on is curiosity. It's great. It's an advantage.

Mick Spiers: 54:09

Awesome. All right, brilliant chip. What's your favorite book? As co authors of a wonderful new book, Convince Me. What's your favorite book, Chip?

Chip Massey: 54:17

So this is actually a book that Adele told me about, and it's fantastic. It's, it's, it's, it's, it nothing to do with business, but it's, it's by Rob Lowe, the actor, and it's called, it's called stories I only tell my friends. I folks, if you, if you like and enjoy, you know the movies and American culture and like that, you would, you'll find it to be an incredible read.

Mick Spiers: 54:41

That's awesome. I did not see that one coming. That's awesome. All right, brilliant. Adele, what's your favorite book?

Adele Gambardella: 54:46

Mine is not a business book, but I mean, like you know, started out as a journalist, so I have to say a movable feast by by Ernest Hemingway, it is, right? It's such a good it's such a good one. But I have to say that, right.

Mick Spiers: 54:58

Okay. Now, what is your favorite quote, Adele?

Adele Gambardella: 54:59

Oh, goodness, oh, oh, I'm gonna pass it to Chip.

Chip Massey: 55:09

So I have, you know, I have a dog. And you know, of course, if you have dogs, you've got, you're going to a vet. And my vet has in his office be the kind of person your dog thinks you are. And I just, I that just so hits him, you know, so hits me, right?

Mick Spiers: 55:31

Yeah, love it. Okay. Now finally, people are going to be enthralled with this. They're going to be listening to this going, I need this skill set, either individually or collectively in their businesses, they might want to get a copy of the book. They might want to book you for keynote speaking or for your amazing workshops. How do people find you?

Adele Gambardella: 55:51

Yeah, so they go to trainingsogood.com and we have online courses on crisis communications. We're doing a course on forensic listening. So there are lots of ways to get in touch with us. There. You can also find our keynote speaking engagements in real to check that out and book us, bring us in for a workshop. We love to do these. Chip does a live hostage negotiation experience that gets you have a role player with real actor, and it's, it's, it's so much fun, and people just walk away change. So it's great.

Mick Spiers: 56:25

Oh, that sounds like a lot of fun, but also very practical, because you can transform those skills into into the real world. And of course, the book convinced me, let's Yeah, bring it up. That's beautiful. So for those listening on the audio, Adele is showing on the video as well. The brand new book convinced me please go and get a copy. Reach out to Adele. Reach out to chip. I encourage you strongly. These are the skills that you need in your own leadership, but then also in your organization, if you want to take yourself to the next level, Adele and chip. Thank you so much. I feel richer for having this conversation. Thank you for allowing me to follow my curiosity about your work and to ask you these questions. I feel like I've had a front row seat and amazing education today, and I know the audience would have got great value out of this as well. Thank you so much.

Chip Massey: 57:18

Oh, thank you, Mick.

Adele Gambardella: 57:19

Thank you.

Mick Spiers: 57:22

You've been listening to The Leadership Project in the next episode, it will be a solo cast where I'll be sharing my takeaways of what I learned from the amazing Adele Gambadella And Chip Massey today, and I'll be adding my own reflections on what I believe it takes to be persuasive influential, without manipulating people. I'll also be sharing my leadership reflections of the week. If you are getting great value from our content, we would love it. If you would leave us a rating and review on Apple podcast or your preferred podcast service. You can also subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you weekly videos, video podcasts and live stream shows. If you would like weekly leadership tips delivered to your inbox. You can subscribe to our mailing list by going to mickspiers.com Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project mickspiers.com a huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content and to all of the team at TLP. Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel, where we bring you interesting videos each and every week, and you can follow us on social, particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. Now, in the meantime, please do take care. Look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.