167. Exploring Leadership in Times of Crisis with Daphna Horowitz

💭 How do you fill the leadership gap in times of crisis?

Daphna Horowitz is affectionately known as the CEO coach as an ICF Master Certified Coach, the bestselling author of two books a sought-after keynote speaker in the field of leadership.

The 'leadership gap' she discusses isn't a matter of knowledge—it's about transitioning from expertise in a field to mastering the art of guiding others. Horowitz's insights challenge us to reframe how we view our teams, encouraging us to value the human element over mere output. This episode is a journey through the heart of workplace dynamics, probing what it genuinely means to connect with and inspire the people behind the roles they fill.

Time Code:
0:00 Introduction
5:28 Navigating the Leadership Gap
12:19 Reflecting on Effective Leadership Development
19:00 Effective Communication and Engagement Strategies
24:37 Effective Leadership Through Communication
34:37 Leadership Communication and Conflict Resolution
42:56 Significance of Coaching

🌐 Connect with Daphna:
• Website: https://daphnahorowitz.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daphnahorowitz/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daphnahorowitzleadership/

📚 You can purchase Daphna's books at Amazon:
• Courage to Lead: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09F1CGQTR/
• Habits for Extraordinary Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JDTRK9H/

Books Mentioned:  
• Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World book by Anna Rosling Rönnlund, Hans Rosling, and Ola Rosling
• Untethered Soul book by Michael Singer

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 5:28 Navigating the Leadership Gap
• 9:36 [Ad] Business & Society with Senthil Nathan
• 10:24 (Cont.) Navigating the Leadership Gap
• 13:06 Reflecting on Effective Leadership Development
• 17:23 [Ad] Virtual Rockstar
• 18:14 (Cont.) Reflecting on Effective Leadership Development
• 20:37 Effective Communication and Engagement Strategies
• 26:14 Effective Leadership Through Communication
• 36:14 Leadership Communication and Conflict Resolution
• 44:33 Significance of Coaching

Transcript

Mick Spiers: 0:01

One of the most challenging parts of any leaders' career are the mindset shifts we need to make. The tricky transition from expert to leader sounds glamorous, but can be an absolute roller coaster. The leader soon finds out that leadership is hard. Leadership is lonely. And leadership is not always fun. Human beings are complex and erratic, and it can become very frustrating as a leader. In today's episode of the leadership project, we're joined by CEO Coach Daphna Horowitz. Daphna provides her insights into the leadership gap, the frustrations of leadership, and what we can do to overcome. Seatback, take note and enjoy the show. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Daphna Horowitz. Daphna is affectionately known as the CEO Coach, and she is a master certified coach with the international coaching Federation, the author of two books, Courage to Lead, and One about Weekly Habits Building for Leaders as well, which is also really impactful. And she's a keynote speaker, well sought after expert in the field of leadership. And today, we've decided to unpack a very specific topic, which is something that Daphna calls the leadership gap, and the frustrations of leadership, we all desire to be leaders, otherwise, you probably wouldn't be listening to this show. But sometimes we find that it is a grind, it can be frustrating, it can be difficult, and I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. However, before we get into that, Daphna, I'd love it, if you would say hello to the audience. But give us a little bit of your background, and what inspired you to be a coach in the first place.

Daphna Horowitz: 1:54

Oh, good. Thank you. Thanks, Mick. First of all, I want to say thank you for having me on your show, and very excited to be here today. And I think my story is an interesting one, because I started off in a completely different field. So yes, I am the CEO, Coach, I have a global coaching company with a team of coaches, and we coach across the board, as CEOs to you know, management level and above. And what made me become a coach is really also the area that I'm specializing in as a coach, and that is that I started my career as an actuary. So that is very mathematical and statistical. And I always make the joke that when I qualified as an actuary and worked as an actuary, people would say to me, what is an actuary, and I'd have to explain it to you. And then when I started coaching people also just very as 16 years ago, still early, you know, for coaching and leadership development. And they were telling me so as a coach, you know, that the idea was that, you know, some kind of sports coach or something like that. So, that's just interesting. What made me change was that I realized that there is this leadership gap in organizations. And when I was working in the corporate world, as an actuary, I felt that there was such a focus on performance and results and get the most out of your people and squeeze the most out of your people without really paying attention to who are your people? And how do we develop people? How do we develop ourselves as leaders, so that we offer more than just this workplace performance based environment? I think things have changed a lot since those days. And we have really made a lot of progress, that my passion was around bringing humaneness to the workplace, and making that transition from expert to leader. So yeah, and I don't know if you want to pause there. But I'd love to talk a little bit more about that as well.

Mick Spiers: 3:51

Yeah, I love listening to your talk there. Definitely. And when you said that very famous words, get the most out of your people, I do get this picture of someone bringing people out and saying, Oh, we've got to squeeze every last juice out of them, as opposed to creating the environment where they can do their very best work, which is to raise a really key part of leadership. Probably not the only thing so really interesting. I do want to unpack two things that you said. But I'll go one at a time. So humaneness, when you say humaneness? What does that mean to you?

Daphna Horowitz: 4:21

Yeah, for me, it's recognizing that your employees and your business is actually made out of people. Yeah, people are the key element of what takes the business to success. So even if you are selling a product or you are selling something very tangible without that whole system that is built on people, you're not gonna get very far and recognizing that people are much more than their skills, knowledge and experience that makes them good at their job. You need to be investing in your people as human beings, what drives them what's going to keep them engaged that's going to make them want to do the best for your business. And having that understanding is really important for the success of the business and for leadership.

Mick Spiers: 5:09

Yeah, we do forget this sometimes, Daphna and Leah, we look at the results. And we look at all of these things. But at the end of it, every business is a people business, nothing happens without people exactly. In these loops. Now you're talking about people are more than their skills and what they bring to the table. Tell me more about what you mean by they're more than more than that.

Daphna Horowitz: 5:28

Yeah. So this is really, I think, something that I also talked about, which I mentioned, which is that expert to leader leap, if you want to call it that. And that is that when we really go to so we enter a workplace, usually at a point in time, when we've got some skills, we come in, we learn, we develop, we grow our experience, we grow our knowledge, and we become really good at what we do. If we've studied something at university, then we already come in with a direction of what our expertise is going to look like. And we get promoted by getting better and better at what we do around that, at some point, you get promoted to a level of leadership, that your level of expertise is now a given. And it's the basic foundational level of what's required from you, in order to really lead the business or the unit or the team that you're leading. And there's one of the elements of the gap that I talked about as well, the leadership gap, which is that step from being acknowledged and recognized for your expertise, and how good you are at what you do, to really needing to develop leadership skills, which is about leading yourself and leading people to get the business to success. I do coach a lot of CEOs and C suite executives away, they say to me, if they come from a coding background, they miss the coding, because all of a sudden a workday is about managing so many different aspects of the business, rather than actually doing the thing that they love to do in the first place, which was coding, can they go back to coding or some of the accessories that you know I work with as well, they love the problem solving them building models, the risk modeling that now let's see, oh, they are or even chief actuary, you know, staying in their level of expertise. They're not doing that stuff, they oversee it, they need to rely on people to do it and get it right. And they've taken a step back, they're a step removed from that expertise. So they need to get used to that like a what are the competencies, now the capabilities I need in order to be a leader, which is a completely new set of skills for them. And there's an element of also missing that, you know, missing being involved in the nuts and bolts of what brought them to this place in the first place?

Mick Spiers: 7:39

Well, and in the end, sometimes we can end up with a situation where let's use your software coder as the example, your company loses your best coder, because they're not on the tools anymore. And they end up with a leader who's a little bit lost, and not even sure that they want to be a leader at this point. So exactly. This expert to lead a transition is the other thing I wanted to unpack with you. Why do you think it is so challenging? For many people? I think I don't have a percentage. But I'm gonna say that there is going to be many people in the audience resonating with that going, they're either doing that transition now and going Yeah, it is tough, or they remember when they made the transition? Why is it so tough?

Daphna Horowitz: 8:20

Yeah, I'd actually think because when you are brought up in an environment to be an expert to really be good at something that you do whatever it is coding, legal staff, engineering, whatever it might be. That is the focus. It's unfortunate. I don't think that at university, we are taught leadership skills alongside that area of expertise. And what happens is Neverland about not having the skills, but even the mindset is around a half to get really good at the stuff that I'm learning, I want to be top of my game, I want to make sure I know all the details, I want to make sure I get everything, right. That's the focus. So you're coming down with this mantle of here's my contribution, this is what I have to give to the company. And it's perfect. It's exactly where you want to be initially, because you're going to build your skills that way. And even in organizations. And again, I think that's changing with leadership development programs, and all of those, which I'm really really, you know, obviously, all for it, that as you're building your expertise and your knowledge base, you want to be building those leadership skills as well because you are going to get to a point where then you are leading a team, and often that people just flounder because they feel out of their depth. And they need the support and they need the skills to take them to that leadership level, together with building their expertise at the same time.

Mick Spiers: 10:15

Yeah, definitely say that this is a gap in our educational system for sure. And many leaders. I'm gonna say most leaders end up in their first leadership role before anyone's even mentioned the word leadership to them in terms of leadership skill or any kind of leadership training. Quite often formal leadership training doesn't come until they might even be a senior manager. And by that time they've developed Some potentially some pretty horrible habits.

Daphna Horowitz: 10:41

What do they do, they either do what they've seen from their own managers, or they really focus on management, which is approaching it like any other project you've approached in the past, you know that let's just focus on the task at hand, make sure we say deadlines, and I want to say actually has a caveat, everything that we were talking about on the management of tasks and performance, and all of that really important stuff. It's not an either or situation yet, but it's definitely at both. And it's not just focusing on knowledge, expertise, managing tasks, managing people delivering on deadlines, those are important, but the holistic picture is okay, how should I act as a leader? How do I lead people? How do I make sure that people bring their best rather than having the mindset of getting the most out of them? And that, for me is important to just point out that it's not just the skills, it's also the mindset, it's how do you look at it, and that needs to change a little there needs to be a ship day.

Mick Spiers: 11:37

So this leadership gap that you talk about, it does exist, and we have it in companies, and you're hinting towards there that one of the first ports of call that the new leader can do is to start mimicking the behavior of the leaders before them, if they stopped and reflected for a moment that make a realization, they didn't like those behaviors themselves.

Daphna Horowitz: 11:56

Exactly, we fall naturally into those if we want to talk bad habits, habits of what we've seen other people do. And sometimes if we don't have another model, if you haven't looked at it, or you know, learned about it a little bit more deeply, we'll just follow those steps, you know, that footpath that was laid out for us, even if it's not particularly good, or empowering, or something that we enjoy, but we fall into that pattern and develop habits of leadership that are not very effective or empowering for our people.

Mick Spiers: 12:27

So I'm gonna ask you a macro question, and then a micro question here. And I'll ask him both at once. And then you go for it, however you want to answer it, the macro question is, how can we as I'm going to say, collectively, society address that pattern? Because it's just a repeated pattern? And the micro question, if there's a leader out there, that's maybe just about got their first leadership role, or their one month into their first leadership role, whatever the case may be, and they want to break the mold. How does the individual act? So society? How do we break it? And how does the individual act?

Daphna Horowitz: 12:58

Yeah, well, that's a big question the macro level, because I don't, I mean, I'm gonna be the first one to say that I don't see many leadership models or models of leaders there, you know, if we look, certainly not going to go into politics, but if we look at the political landscape, we often feel quite disappointed by the leadership that we see there. So I think that's a really, really tough one to answer. So I'm gonna go to the macro, because I think it starts with us, it starts with every individual who wants to make a change, and really do better. So when you have an experience of a manager that just was not a good manager to sit back and look at it and think about and they will have you I want to be as a leader, go and look for those role models, even if you don't know them. But read a little bit, whatever strikes your fancy, if it's reading biographies, or autobiographies or reading leadership books, or reading books about personal development, read outside of your area of expertise. And I found that this was often a challenge for people who are really good at what they do. They love what they do. And they're real subject matter experts, they don't tend to read outside of their area and look for other things, particularly around leadership, they kind of think that that will fall into place. So I would say do it in the way that appeals to you. You know, sometimes, biography of a leader might be very interesting to read, and then read critically, what are the things that I can really learn from this both on the good side, good things I want to implement, and bad side off, that's not going to work for me together with being cognizant of the culture and your own values and how you want to show up as a leader? Yeah, I think individual responsibility, it starts with ourselves and looking about it, thinking about it, learning about it, so that you can change your own patterns, the patterns of what you see and really build a plan around what kind of leader do I want to be?

Mick Spiers: 14:46

So what I'm hearing here is an intentional act to stop and reflect and think about leaders that you've had in the past, the good, the bad, the ugly, all say, of how it is, and then to think about what were the good leaders? What was it that they did that inspired you? And how might you put that into your own model or leadership? And what were the leaders that maybe made you feel like less than worthy and put you in your place or whatever the case might be? And maybe take stock of Do you really want to do that to another human being and you get your almost your model of what you want to be and what you don't want to be as a leader, how does that sit with you?

Daphna Horowitz: 15:21

Yeah, I think that's spot on. And I think I do want to highlight that sometimes out of just lack of maybe effort or maybe lack of time or stress. We don't spend time thinking about it. So we just fall into patterns. And then we say, well, we had to endure this hardship with ABA. Don't let my direct reports deal with it, you know, I had to do it, let them deal with it, added it, you know, added it, they can do it too. And that's a tough pattern to fall into. So a pattern of much more conscious awareness. And I'll maybe just give a small tip that I talked about. And I know it's difficult to implement. But something you can do is, at the end of the day, reflect back on some of the meetings and interactions that you've had and some of the things that you've done during your work day with anybody that you might have come across, you know, whether it's your team or your colleagues or your managers or suppliers or clients, just take a moment to reflect back and say, even just go with one thing. What is one thing that I feel that I did really well today from a leadership perspective, how I showed up or how it impacted people? And what is one thing that I'm not so happy with that? I know, I could have done differently? Like if there's a niggle, because sometimes we tend to ignore those niggles? Right, it's over, it's done. Let me not think about it, I got the outcome that I wanted. Now, if there's something niggling at you, that you think I would have liked to have approach that differently, pay attention to that and say, what is it about and how could I have done it differently. And that kind of reflection will give you a fortune of learning, if you just do this every day, and it doesn't take long, and write it down, write it down. So important.

Mick Spiers: 17:32

One Lesson A Day is 365 lessons at the end of the year, and you're just gonna get fine tuned and better and better all the time. And, and lifelong leaders are lifelong learners, you don't this is not just for your first year of leadership, you can do that for your entire career. Really great, definitely want to come back to that word frustration. So we said at the top of the show, what are the frustrations of leadership that you speak of?

Daphna Horowitz: 17:55

Yeah, so I think one that I really do see is that often a leader will sit with a vision or an idea or a project that they want to implement, they see into the future, and they know where they want to go and where they want to take their business or their business unit. And for them, that's very clear. And their way of thinking because they've done all the thinking, and they've got their inspiration, whatever. And they're not that good at communicating it to their next level to the team, or even to explain are that good at taking the team through the process. So they will be 100 steps ahead in terms of all the thinking work and ideation work that they've done. And they kind of expect the team to be run on board from the get go understand what they want, build a plan and start implementing. And there is this gap that happens there between where the leader is in their thinking and where their team is. And what really needs to happen there is that the leader understands they need to take their team through the process. So there's a thinking process, there's a communication process, there's allowing time for questions, because I see that a little bit of a frustration because, you know, sometimes see, oh, that I work with comes up with a great idea where they want to take their business in which direction and they talk to their team and their team starts asking questions, but will it work? And what about this? And what about that risk, and I know someone who tried something similar and it didn't work. And this is a huge cause of frustration for the CEO, because they already know. And then I've done the thinking of data. And the team is still just starting to percolate on this idea and how it needs to happen. And here, the leader does need to step back and allow that time and process to happen. Allow the questions to come out allow the negativity to come out. Because I also say as frustrating as negativity is for a visionary positive leader, it actually can also highlight some pitfalls that you might not have thought of. So listen, have the conversations, welcome the challenges, and then bring them along, it might take a little bit of time, but have the patience to bring them along in that process. At some point, you might see that there are some laggards who are just not going to buy in. And you know, you'd have to deal with that in some way. But you will see the bulk of your team will get behind you. They just need some time. So that's one of the frustrations that definitely come up a lot.

Mick Spiers: 20:19

Let's unpack that a little bit more. The words that are popping into my mind when you speak definitely communication, engagement and holding space. So the communication Am I able to articulate with deep clarity, my vision in a way that others will understand engagement? I love what you're saying because there's a good chance that this person has been thinking this through when they're in the shower, when they're on the bus, whatever it is. Think about it for months, and then they start expressing it to people. How are you not getting this? It's so obvious. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. You've been thinking about it for months. This is the first I've heard of it. Come on. So let people catch up. And then this holding space, I think that's really key. I think it's in key for the engagement as well that you may get some people that ask some critical questions. Are you going to hold space and stay curious and say, you know, work with them through those questions that they might have? You know, I think this is really powerful. So how does one get started with something like that deafness. So if this is their frustration that people aren't able to follow their vision And then they critically questioned the vision, etc, etc. How does someone start on breaking that pattern?

Daphna Horowitz: 21:24

Yeah, I think that I love how you separated attitude, those three buckets because I think those are critical. So coming in with an awareness, when you're presenting a new idea, a new direction, a vision, a project, understand that you're going to have to have those three steps at the outset. So communicate and talk about it and allow create a forum. I often say that, you know, when you're presenting something, I say, ask for the where it's gonna go wrong, say didn't, what am I missing? What are the risks? What are you concerned about, and often, the CEO will get frustrated with it, because they'll feel that it's bringing down their level of energy and excitement and enthusiasm for the thing, but it's good. It's part of the process. And it's part of also critical analysis. So the key tip there for the leader is to say, have patience, actually come into this with patience and understanding that there is a gap that needs to be bridged, and you just need to give it a bit of time, the CEOs or the leaders often feel that they're being held back by this process, because they're ready to just jump in and implement. But it's actually a crucial time doesn't have to take long, it could be even a matter of maybe a week or two of a few conversations that if you give that the time and the space to really critically analyze and have the conversations, you will have a team that is much more bought in then you running ahead trying to get a dancer, here's the downside. The other side, if you don't pay attention to that initial phase, you'll end up chasing people all the time for deliverables back asking, chasing, chasing, chasing because people are just not doing it, they often don't do it because they just don't get it and they don't understand exactly what you want. Or that something, you know, you kind of jump in with both feet. And then you'll end up in a crisis situation because all of a sudden bags come up and problems come up. And now you have to manage that. So yeah, that's a little bit of the scenario pain today, have patients take time to build it at friend so that you can avoid some of the problems that come up later.

Mick Spiers: 23:19

Yeah, great. The word patience is coming through loud and clear. I think the second part there is I'm going to say almost addressing what's going to hold you back. Because if you don't address those questions, that doesn't mean those questions don't exist, and you ignore them at your peril. So that there'll be a silence, almost resistance to the change, because people have got these questions in their head that never got answered. So you ignore those questions at your peril. And by asking the questions, then the positive impact that comes from that is the buy in, because now people feel like their fingerprints are somehow on it, that they helped co architect the future. How does that sit with you?

Daphna Horowitz: 23:55

Yeah. And I think part of that is helping them to feel that they were valued member of the team that is not just you know, maybe a leader that ends up looking more like a commander in Tel Aviv decided we're doing this later, do I do what I say? And then they're just following instructions to not getting really, you know, useful interaction and engagement on that side. So I think it's a balance. I think it's a balance. And I think that, you know, negativity is also something that needs to be managed as a leader that I think you've got to allow space for it in a focus directed way.

Mick Spiers: 24:25

What role do you think reframing could play in that at this point, right. So you do get the negative question and I like, oh, we just can't do this, or what can we do? That's not gonna work? So what can we do? What can we do with what we are with where we are with what we've got? So what role when you're getting those, let's say those challenging negatively framed questions, what role was word reframing play there?

Daphna Horowitz: 24:46

I think excellent reframing in order to see how else you can look at it, what kind of other perspectives you can bring in? I think that's critical. I also think don't be scared to go down the rabbit hole. Okay. So you don't think it will work? What are the specific elements that you think are a problem here? What is the risk that you worry that we are taking on at the end of the day, it is the leaders decision, and I think the team knows this, that you want to be able to hit those elements, so that it's addressed. Because if it's not addressed, you will have those naysayers going well, assets on acid, this wouldn't work. So sometimes you say, okay, yeah, that's a risk. That's a risk that I'm willing to take and invest a bit of time and energy into and money, we're going to run with it and see how it rolls rather than actually not bringing it up. And then it's like, Ah, see, I told you, you know.

Mick Spiers: 25:37

yeah, I like it. And what I'm hearing is Stay curious a bit longer, and ask if you exploratory questions around it. And the two paths that might come there is at the bottom of that rabbit hole, you might find something that you had a blind sight on, and you need to address it, or the second, the worst thing that happens is the person feels heard and seen.

Daphna Horowitz: 25:55

Exactly! They feel heard and seen. And I think we add to that, that at the end of the day, if those were challenges or frustrations were aid, we do need to agree as a team that we are going for it and that we are all behind the decision. So you're much more likely to get that kind of support when you've given an opportunity for people to hear what they're thinking And then if you haven't.

Mick Spiers: 26:20

Yeah, all right, so yeah, so what I'm hearing there is you might not get 100% consensus on everything. Yeah. And you don't have to. You've had that challenge respectfully. But then afterwards, you get the commitment. All right, we're going to head anyway. And let's give it our best shot. Yeah, like it definitely. Alright. So I think we've unpacked that frustration, it was a good one, what would be the next biggest one? Yeah, give us the next big one on your on your hit list.

Daphna Horowitz: 26:43

I think that the next one is about style, you know, leadership style. So a leader has got a lot going on, and a lot of complexity to the role in loads of things to manage at the same time, and they sometimes don't pay attention to how they come across how the impact people have, they get people to do what they want them to do. And so they can get a reputation for being difficult or a bully or a tyrant, a dictator, whatever, you know, they can get a reputation about this style and get negative feedback about it even. And what I've found is that really, most of the people want to change that they don't like to receive the negativity present. So I think one of the frustrations is receiving negative feedback, or having created or built a reputation or a perception of being difficult. They don't really want that reputation, but they kind of get stuck in this place of I don't know how to change it. And I'm getting this feedback. And maybe that's just the way that I am. And in order to run this business, they need to accept me as I am. And that's it. And there's a frustration that goes on there. So I think that that is also something that can definitely be worked with, with awareness. And I think that when leaders see that their impact is not positive on people. It does hurt them in such a manner that methods are readily they kind of put on this mask to say, we need to get this business going, these are the things I need to do. Everybody must just get in line, this is who I am, they know me, they'll get used to it. That's the facade that you know, when they're on their own in their quiet moments of reflection, and they know that they would want to do it differently. And that's a bit of a source of frustration, and especially if they're not getting help on changing that.

Mick Spiers: 28:29

Yeah, I think there's a element of learned helplessness there at the end. And I've seen this in many leaders, when you're talking, it's sounding very familiar to me, the idea that they may not have in their toolkit, the ability to inspire people into action, because people want to do it. So they start reverting to other habits and other styles, more directorial styles, that if they were honest with themselves, they go, that's not the leader that they really set out to become, then they might even start getting at least some micro results like so people start doing what they're told, and they go, Okay, well, it works, that must be what I need to do, and use the word acceptance, but if they looked at themselves, honestly, in the mirror, it's incongruent with the leader that they wanted to become.

Daphna Horowitz: 29:13

Exactly, exactly. And I think a lot of people do want to have a positive impact on people around them, they might not see themselves as inspirational, you know, going to that level, I just want to inspire people around me that they do want people to be connected to them, they want people to do it, because they want to do it. And not just because they told them, they want people to be engaged and excited about the business. And that really is part of your leadership style and approach and how you impact people with your style. And I've heard some stories of leaders who know that it goes even beyond we'll be talking about, okay, maybe it's not the most ideal style, but some style can be hurtful, you know, employees coming into their office and bursting into tears because they get shouted at or getting shut down in a meeting. And you know, your employees color just drains from their face. And they notice these things, and they don't really want to do it. But they kind of get stuck in a loop there. They don't know how to change it.

Mick Spiers: 30:11

Yeah, I can definitely see this and it would not be congruent with the person that they want to be and they almost can't stop themselves is one thing. I'd say. The other one I've seen that's similar to this Daphna, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, a leader that says I have like they believe if you get them in the right moment, they'll believe in empowerment, yes, I want to empower my people. And that's one of my values. I want to empower my staff. And then they'll catch themselves saying something like, but how can I empower them when my boss doesn't empower me? Right? So I'm a middle manager, or a senior manager, and the executive haven't empowered me. So why should I empower my people?

Daphna Horowitz: 30:45

Exactly. That's that pattern that just gets, you know, brought down from each layer of leadership, which is really unhealthy. And it's tough. It's tough for people sitting in the middle management role, who want to be a different kind of leader to their own people, but are getting a completely different type of leadership from their own managers, and they're in the sandwich position, which is challenging. It's challenging.

Mick Spiers: 31:10

All right, so what's the call to action here? If I'm a leader, listening to the show right now, and I'm feeling a little guilty, I'm listening to Daphna. And I'm going Oh, yeah, I think I did that just yesterday, the thing that she said about the meeting, I think I just did that. Yes. How does someone stop and take account of that and then reset?

Daphna Horowitz: 31:30

Yeah, I think the key thing there is to first of all stop and take account of it. So that's kind of going back a little bit to the reflection that I said, have a look at what you're doing. And first of all, own your part in that. So reflect on what you've done. Oh, I didn't really want to do it that way. And yes, this is how my manager is, do I want to change the pattern, and changing the pattern requires both vulnerability and courage, because it's vulnerability to admit, okay, you know what, I didn't handle that. So in front of your own direct report, I didn't handle that the way that I wanted to, I really would have liked to have done it differently. This is what I'm going to be working on. I think there's something really powerful about talking to your team and your manager, even this is something that I'm working on our change, that's helped me change it, because when I get into this loop, let me know so that I can stop in the moment or come to me afterwards, of course, I want to say, to give people critical feedback in a group setting is never a good idea, I would never do that. So always in private one on one that encourage openness within your own team to give you feedback as a manager, tell them specifically what you want feedback about. And that can be a way that you can work around it. And then the carriages having that conversation with your manager, because that's not always easy. But you can say, you know, when you behave in this way, the impact is that I'll end up behaving with my team this way. And I think we need to change this pattern. There's something here that needs to change, because I'm seeing the impact on that team, I see the impact from you on me. And I think if we can do it differently, let's do it differently. And another thing I would add there is when you're getting feedback about something that isn't working, rather than come from a kind of complaint approach of this is not working, it's not good. For me, it's wrong, it's the wrong way to be actually to say here's what would work better for me. So instead of calling me out in public, when I've made a mistake, could you rather take me aside, talk to me in private about it. And I'll make sure not to do it next time. And I'll make any corrections that I need to make to the people involved. So I think with feedback can with what is your suggestion, rather than just what is wrong? Or what upsets you?

Mick Spiers: 33:37

Very good? All right, definitely. So what I'm hearing is it starts with awareness, it moves to open, transparent and vulnerable conversations, and then an action orientation about what you're going to do about it. So get really good. All right, nice. One, let's go with at least one more, what's your next leadership frustration,

Daphna Horowitz: 33:53

learn more, there are quite a few, quite a few that okay, maybe let's talk about this one, which is that it can be lonely to be in the role of the manager, you know, as you get higher up in that hierarchy of organizational structures, it can get really lonely, because there aren't many people that you can talk to about your frustrations. And it's kind of that lonely, it's lonely at the top idea of, you know, you have to keep at a certain image and a positive image about things when it's difficult, and don't advocate pretending that something is everything's okay, when something's wrong, I think you can communicate challenges and difficulties. But as a leader, you've also got to communicate that you've got it under control, and that you're thinking about it and that you're dealing with it, even when sometimes you feel that you don't know what the next step is going to be. Or you don't know how you're going to solve this problem at this stage. So I think that that loneliness of not always being able to talk about what you're going through, and the difficulties that you're facing, or even sometimes brainstorming around a course of action, because you have to take a decision quickly and act. That's another frustration and challenge of leadership.

Mick Spiers: 35:05

Yeah, it's really interesting one in southern that's jumping into my mind, as you're talking is the I don't even want to use the word balance. But maybe it's the word dichotomy, sometimes between authenticity, and role modeling and responsibility. That's the best way I can describe it. So if you're trying to get the right behaviors in the organization, you're a human being too, you have feelings, you are going through things, but you need to be thinking about what is going to serve you and your team best at that moment. And sometimes it may not be to say what's really on your mind at that very moment, and you pick a different moment to share it. And that's this is where that loneliness can come because you're starting to bottle things up. And that's not necessarily healthy. Alright, so how do we balance this authenticity versus the responsibility of leadership? And what's going to serve the team? Well, at that moment.

Daphna Horowitz: 35:56

I love that the authenticity versus responsibility is such a beautiful way to put it. And I think that first of all, you've got to find people that you can talk to you and I think that's really, really important somewhere where you can offload or share or just give voice to some of the frustrations that you're going through. I think that's critical at the same time. I think that this also goes back to communication is always communicate authentically. And that you can do, you can't always give all the details, you don't sometimes have all the details, but you can communicate what you are experiencing, or what you're going through, you know, in an uncertain situation, for example, if there's a restructure in the organization, and you don't know, there's all this worry about who's going to be let go, who's gonna stay, and you as the manager of the team, you just don't know who is and that directive hasn't been given to you. So you don't have information, maybe you actually have information that you aren't able to share at that moment, because you haven't been given permission from above to share. What can you share authentically, in that moment, what you can share is the anxiety, there's a level of anxiety that we know exists in the team at the moment. So talk about that. And that'd be really hard to be in the situation. I'm right here with you. I can't share all the details. I don't know all the details, but here's what I can share, I can share that I can be a support for you. If you're worried, come and talk to me. If you have any questions come and talk to me. I don't know if I'll have all the answers. But let's talk about it. And I think that this is sometimes an error that leaders make is that in times of uncertainty, they under communicate, rather than over communicate and under communicate exactly. For that reason. They don't know what to say, they don't want to put a light on things that are not easy to talk about, because they think it will create more problems that don't have any information. So they don't think they have anything to share. But the truth is, if you create a vacuum of silence, in situations like this, that's when negativity comes up. And stories that are even worse cannot people make at staff because when there's a vacuum, we make up stuff, usually negative, usually, you know, even more crisis than it really is. So talk about what you can talk about authentically could talk about your feelings, it is important to say, you know, and also answered in this situation, I don't know everything things are being decided around me that I'm not part of the conversation, you can talk about those things, and at the same time, give a feeling of confidence, you know, I'm here for you, I'm going to support you in whatever way I can we can talk through these things. So it's both. So I think the question is, what can you share authentically? And rather share then, don't you?

Mick Spiers: 38:39

Yeah, love it, and you're right, in a vacuum of information, people will fill the void. And they will tend to because of the fear of loss, they'll tend to catastrophize as probably far worse than what they want. The reality is.

Daphna Horowitz: 38:51

That's the word I was looking but catastrophize. That's it, that's where it goes.

Mick Spiers: 38:55

That's exactly it. So then from there, you know, being off to, I'm going to say the word humaneness, which is a word that you use very early in the podcast, to be a human in front of them, and to share what you can share. And sometimes a null update is better than no update at all. Not every 30 minutes. But you know, every few days when the team knows that something's going on, hey, team, we're not there yet. It's still coming. Don't worry, we're thinking of you. Like, you know, all of these things are now updated, sometimes better than no update at all. And to keep that communication open so that they don't start kind of second guessing what's going on. All right, one thing I want to put on the table now in terms of the frustrations, alright, so collective now is when this generates into avoidance behavior, said leaders might be frustrated with the humans in their team, because human beings are complex, they might be frustrated with a certain topic, and they start skating around it. And it's the same thing that I said, before you avoid these things, or you ignore them at your peril. What advice can you give to a leader who has had these frustrations? They know what frustrates them, they've developed a habit of avoidance instead of hitting it front on.

Daphna Horowitz: 40:05

Yeah, I think habits of avoidance are just a kind of like, a bottomless pit to that you can't Well you can get out of but if you're gonna keep with the avoidance, it's not gonna do anything good for your business. And I know it's hard. I know, sometimes it's easier, you know, to just say, Okay, I won't until it becomes an issue, I'll just avoid it and let it be. And you're actually creating a bigger problem in that situation. So you know, if you look at, I'll just give an example. Maybe just to make it a bit more real, you know, that there's a personality clash between two people on your team. And at the moment, things are running, and they're working on that. But there's this tension, babbling and lack a little bit of conflict and complains and talking, you know, gossiping, but you are the manager of the team, and you're thinking, avoidance, right? I'm not going to deal with it, because right now things are running and they're working, and I don't want to have a look at it. And if it becomes an issue, I'll get involved. The truth is that that the time it becomes an issue and it probably well, it's way, way harder to deal with than if it would have been addressed right at the beginning. So I think people have to end it. This is everyone You need to trust our gut feel on staff because I think genuinely our gap believes right. And if we know the sounds, and here's the bet, you know the balance that we're that you used earlier, but you don't want to jump on every situation because you want to not avoid it. But you don't want to also leave it to fester too long, because you've been avoiding it. And I think this is gonna fail, you know, when you're avoiding something that is likely to really become an issue, and you're avoiding it, because it's just, you know, easier not to deal with, or if it's something that can be resolved by itself. And the key there is to check with yourself and say, you know, do I need to stick in my head? Is there something that I need to be addressing that I'm not addressing? Because I'm scared of how I will handle it? Or what will happen if I address it, or I fear that I will blow it out of proportion? You've got to really check with yourself, why are you avoiding it while you go into avoidance? And really say rather not rather deal with it, rather, have the conversation, bring the two people in and just say, Is something going on? Is it something that we need to be dealing with something we need to be having a conversation about? Or have you got it handled? Because I'm seeing that it's starting to impact the team? Yet? Do you need me? Do you not mean, just you can also step in lightly, you know, to something? So yeah, I think avoidance is just and that was just one example. There's so many examples of avoidance, but rather catch it, catch it, ask yourself, why are you avoiding it? What's the real reason behind the avoidance? And is it something you can allow to sort out that itself? Is it something that you could just need to tread a little bit lightly and bring it to light? Or is it something that you really would be much better off dealing with, so doesn't fester into a much bigger problem at the end?

Mick Spiers: 43:02

So there's two layers I'm hearing they're definitely the first one is trust your intuition that's there for a reason. And then follow your nose, if you like in that regard, and that a problem addressed early is going to stop it from snowballing. It could be to use your example, the two individuals are making assumptions about each other and about each other's intentions. That's a very, very common one. And I just had an adult conversation with each other, though realized, actually, you know what, we're both more alike than we thought we were. And they find common ground quickly, before it gets to a point where they've diverted from course, substantially, then the second layer was then Well, what's really holding you back? What's really holding you back? What was the limiting belief that stops you from acting? That's not about the case. Now that's about you. It's about you is that that your desire to be loved, or and liked is stronger than your need to address the situation? Like, is it that you don't like conflict, and there's something that's stopping you from going there? You're a coach, I'm a coach, this is gonna sound like a sales pitch here for a second, what role do you think coaching now plays in this part, when people do get to those limiting beliefs that are stopping them from acting? What role can coaching play there?

Daphna Horowitz: 44:15

So I think we know as coaches, that's where we do some of the work. And I think that's where I come in and always say, leadership starts with you. It's an inside out process. So we often think that leadership is about external, what I need to do, and I need to build this business, I need to build the team, I need to create an amazing product, I need to be innovative in that approach. And again, those are all valid and true that the real leadership starts when you look inside and you see how am I behaving? What are the things that show up? What is triggering me in the workplace, you know, those Gremlins that come out every time a certain conversation or issue comes up, and I get, you know, triggered, and I don't want to deal with it. And that's where coaching comes in. We help with that inside perspective. Because when we can look inside ourselves and really unpack some of our limiting beliefs, some of our patterns of behaviors that get triggered by different things, we can start to change those change our mindsets, change our behaviors, and habits, that all facilitates the external work that we need to do in the world. Rather, building the business, the strategies and the plans and the innovation. It's much more powerful, it's kind of exponentially more successful, if you understand that the workers with you first and I'm going to just add the layer in between, which is the people wrap because when you understand yourself better, and you do that inner work, you know, you understand how you show up and how you impact people, you understand people better and you're able to lead them better. And that is the foundation of the business that is going to get you to the success that you want.

Mick Spiers: 45:51

I love this inside out term that you're using. It's really good. And that's exactly what a coach can help you with. It can really help with working on yourself so that you can become a better leader for your people. And that's the sequence that it needs to be and I'm going to attempt here at a very short summary here. daftar of the key things that we're talking about people human beings are complex. To come back to our original metaphor or the individuals we're talking about far more complex than software coding ever was far more complex than a spreadsheet. far more complex than almost any individual craft that you can do. Human beings are more complex than that. And that's where the frustrations come in.

Daphna Horowitz: 46:27

That's hard. Because it's hard work. It's hard work. And there's no manual.

Mick Spiers: 46:31

And soft skills is one of the biggest misnomer in the world, right? It's hard work. And it is complex. And one of the most frustrating things is that what works today may not even work two weeks from now. All right, so and what works for one individual may not work for another individual. So human beings are complex, therefore, leadership can be frustrating. But the big takeaway from our discussion today is action. So when you notice a name, that you might be in a downward spiral and negative spiral, like the hall, I'm falling into the habits of the leaders before me that I didn't like, but I've gotten myself in a spiral. So the notice a name, the awareness, and then the action on what am I going to do to turn that into a virtuous spiral? How am I going to get better every day? And not avoid it, but actually do something about it? So yes, human beings are complex, leadership can be frustrating, but the best thing you can do is act. How does that sit with you?

Daphna Horowitz: 47:26

Lovely, lovely. And I love that you tied in the awareness to the action, because action without awareness is you just don't know what you're hitting. And so you've got to take that time to just create awareness so that you can take the action that will be exactly right for what you want to solve for.

Mick Spiers: 47:42

Wonderful. All right, so I'm gonna take us now to our Rapid Round. These are the same four questions that were asked all of our guests deafness. First one, what's the one thing you know, now that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Daphna Horowitz: 47:55

That is such a good question. What is the one thing I know now that I wish I knew when I was 20? Maybe I would say, Yeah, two things are coming. I think I talked myself very seriously when I was 20. You know, it was very cool all about Korea, and doing well and success and academics. And so I would say not to take myself so seriously. But I want to add to that is the element that has come, you know, from you later on in life, which is really understanding the value of connecting to myself, knowing myself well. So that I back to that before I backed maybe some of the more external trappings of success. I think, for me, there was you know, there was a bit of a gap there. And I think that's what I went in search of. So I wish I knew that when I was 20.

Mick Spiers: 48:45

Yeah, no sharing. Okay, what's your favorite book?

Daphna Horowitz: 48:48

Okay, so this is a really, really tough one for me, because I've got so many so many that I'm going to do to can I do too, because they like sit on the opposite ends. One of my favorite books of all time is Factfulness by Hans Rosling. I don't know if you've heard of this book? I haven't. Oh, it is. Wow. It's just really well, I'd recommend anybody to get the book and read it. It's firstly, so readable. So I was recommended this book. And I thought, I'm never going to read it because it looked so you know, technical studies, talks about the biases that we carry as human beings and how we don't notice that we carry those biases. So even me describing it like the sound so dry, and how could it possibly, but it was unputdownable because Hans Rosling, who has since passed away, write about his experiences. And he's a doctor and an epidemiologist. And he worked through the Ebola virus. And what about fascinating, fascinating stories of how the different types of biases that we hold, and how we don't notice The second book that I want to talk about is Untethered Soul by it, and bringing in his story. So it really is a fascinating Michael Singer. And that takes you to the other extreme. So this is talking about statistical stuff and biases. read, and also incredibly educational in terms of that, And he shows you all sorts of different things. This is really you know, how we tend to see the world based on the narrative about your soul. This is really about connecting to who we are on the inside and how that drives everything that we do and that we have. And we don't really make an effort to look how we show up and how we can impact our world. And really, outside of that, to to look outside of that perspective. And I'm going to add to that Sorry, sorry, Eckhart Tolle, the new earth, also just about just so beautifully and poetically I think as coaches, we really try and do that for our clients. written about how our experience shapes our reality and how we And you know, and that's really an important part of being can impact that and influence that on a soul level. And I think for me, those are the two elements of life that we really human. So just an amazing book. want to embrace.

Mick Spiers: 51:03

All right, what's your favorite quote?

Daphna Horowitz: 51:05

My favorite quote is this. Don't ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive, and then go and do it, because what the world needs is people who have come alive and I think this is so relevant this is about Howard Thurman. So relevant to our life at the moment is and again, it's coming back to ourselves, right? The inside out, see how you can contribute to the world from who you are on the inside? What is it that makes you come alive? Because if you focus on that, and do that, you'll create amazing things in the world. So yeah, love it.

Mick Spiers: 51:40

All right, and finally, Daphna, how do people find you? If they'd like to know more? If they want coaching? If they want to read your books, if they want your services? How do they find you?

Daphna Horowitz: 51:49

Thanks, Mick. So definitely social media, LinkedIn, after Facebook, and Instagram are my three platforms YouTube also, now website, daphnahorowitz.com. Also on our website, you can get a free sample of both of my books. So you know, there's a place they go into resources, and you can just put in your details. And we'll send you the first four chapters of each of the books. And if you're interested in just reading them and testing them out before, you know, before you want to know if you want to ban them or not. And there's lots of resources on our website as well. So yeah, can find me everywhere, everywhere where you can find people these days.

Mick Spiers: 52:26

Wonderful Daphna. And I just want to finish with one statement to you. And for those listening in the audience may not be aware where you're located in the world right now, which is in a lot of strife. It's, you know, people on my side of the world, you know, living in Melbourne, where it's peaceful as it can possibly get, we can't begin to imagine what you're going through, and our thoughts are with you can hope for a peaceful resolution in the soonest possible timeframe. So we do think of you we don't know how to help us most of the time, most of us don't know how to help. We don't even know how to fully empathize with what's going on. But our thoughts are with you.

Daphna Horowitz: 53:02

Thank you, Mick. And thank you for mentioning that. And I just want to say that that means a lot, just that care. And empathy is really such an important part of human connection. So thank you.

Mick Spiers: 53:12

All right. Well, thank you, Daphna, for sharing your thoughts and wisdom with us today about what is a leadership gap in the world, the frustrations of leadership and what we can do about it. Thank you so much for your time today.

Daphna Horowitz: 53:23

Thank you, Mick.

Mick Spiers: 53:25

You've been listening to the leadership project. In the next episode, we'll be joined by Brendon Watt of Access Consciousness. Brandon shares his inspirational story of how he turned his life around, from struggling with addiction through to the successful person he is today, and the role that letting go of judgment has played in that you don't want to miss this. Thank you for listening to The Leadership Project that mickspiers.com. A huge call out to Faris Sedek for his video editing of all of our video content, and all of the team at TLP Joan Gozon, Gerald Calibo and my amazing wife Sei Spiers, I could not do this show without you. Don't forget to subscribe to The Leadership Project YouTube channel where we bring you interesting videos each and every week. And you can follow us on social particularly on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Now in the meantime, please do take care. Look out for each other and join us on this journey as we learn together and lead together.