337. Leading Without Losing Yourself: Authenticity in a Disruptive World with Frans Campher

If you’ve ever felt pressure to “look like a leader” instead of actually leading, this conversation will land. I sit down with executive coach and author Frans Campher (Dynamic Leadership in a Disruptive World) to talk about the masks we inherit, the behaviors we copy, and the quiet cost of bending ourselves out of shape to fit an old leadership template.

We get practical fast. Frans shares his head, heart, and gut framework for decision-making and why ignoring intuition and emotion can push smart people into the wrong roles for the wrong reasons. We also challenge the way we talk about imposter syndrome, reframing it as imposter thoughts and exploring how authenticity grows through small, deliberate experiments rather than big performative leaps. Along the way, we unpack what it really means to “be yourself” at work without using authenticity as an excuse to be unfiltered or careless.

The deeper thread is identity. If you don’t know who you are, you’ll default to mimicry, technique, and performance. Frans lays out reflective practices like life story work, values inventories, and daily journaling to build self-awareness and a grounded leadership signature. We also talk about leading people dynamically as they evolve, meeting them fresh instead of relying on old mental files, and how presence and listening to understand can change the quality of trust in every conversation. Finally, Frans’ orchestra analogy makes the shift clear: leadership growth often means moving from expert to conductor, creating results through others.

Subscribe for more conversations on authentic leadership, leadership development, executive coaching, and leading through disruption, and if this sparks an insight, share it and leave a review so more leaders can find it.

🌐 Connect with Frans:
• Website: https://www.ildynamics.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franscampher/

📚 You can purchase Frans' book on Amazon:
• Dynamic Leadership in a Disruptive World: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1068365803/

Transcript

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Mick Spiers: 0:01

Have you ever felt pressure to become a version of yourself that does not quite feel true? Have you ever copied the behavior of leaders before you, even parts of them you did not actually admire? And have you ever wondered whether leadership development is not only about learning new skills, but also about remembering who you already are. Today, I'm joined by Frans Campher. Frans is an executive coach, leadership strategist, facilitator, and author of Dynamic Leadership in a Disruptive World. He brings decades of boardroom CEO and executive coaching experience to his work, helping leaders to reconnect with their true self in a changing world. In this conversation, Frans invites us to look behind the mask. We explore authenticity, identity, values, self-awareness, and the courage to stop bending ourselves out of shape to fit an outdated image of leadership. So, as you listen today, I invite you to think about the version of leadership you may have inherited. Is it still serving you? Is it still serving the people around you? And what would you change if you allowed yourself to lead with more truth, more presence, and more alignment. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Frans Campher. Frans is an executive coach, a strategist, a facilitator, and an author, and helps CEOs and High-performance organizations to discover their true self in a high-performance world in a disrupted world. His book is called "Dynamic Leadership in a Disruptive World" but I don't want you to instantly think about the disruption and everything that's happening in the world. That is the environment in which we work. What we're going to be talking about today is what are the shifts that the leader needs to make. What do we need to do to adapt as leaders in this disruptive world? And we're going to be talking a lot about identity, who we truly are, and how we show up as leaders, and how that may need to change as we go forward in a world that keeps on changing at a pace that we've never seen before. Frans is also a program leader at the Imperial College Business School, where he helps thousands of people to take this leap, to look inwards, and to go, well, what do I need to do differently to get a different result in this world that keeps on changing around me. So this is going to be really interesting conversation, and I'm dying to get into it. So without any further do Frans, I'd love it if you'd say hello to the audience, give a little flavor of your own background, but most importantly, what inspires you to show up every day to be you, to be your authentic friends, camper when you're helping these others. What inspires you and keeps you motivated and disciplined to do what you do?

Frans Campher: 3:12

Mick, thank you. It's a great pleasure to be with you, and you're talking about my favorite subject, obviously as part of my book, but also in the work that I've done in my own experience, so I think just a little bit of background. Southern African migrant came to the UK 33 years ago, led the expansion of a big insurance business from South Africa to the UK. European chief executive, global member of the board looking after service worldwide. So I come out of a strong operational background and at a high level, and then I've been doing this work for about 23 years now. And the reason I do this work is that when I stepped away from the company that I was with, and I was headhunted to go back into the insurance business again, I had a contract on my desk, and I didn't sign it for about three days. and My wife said, "What, what the heck's going on? You haven't signed this new contract that you've been given." And I said, "I'm not sure I want to do this anymore. I'm not sure that I want to go back into the city and deal with insurance." And she said to me, she asked me the best question I've ever been asked, Mick. She said to me, "Frans, what do you love to do every day?" And I said, "What I really love to do every day is to support people in their development." And she said to me, "Well, why don't we do that all the time?" And we created the business 23 years ago. Now, unfortunately, I lost her three years ago, so you're the co-founder of the business. And but I'm working the legacy, and so what brings me to this kind of work is, I think, the best decision I ever made at a point in my career was the day that I decided that who I was was okay, and that I didn't have to bend myself out of shape, and that I didn't have to try and pretend to be something that I wasn't. And I found that the more I was authentic and I was deeply who I was, the more that I was successful, the more influential I became. And I got promoted quicker, and so that is, I think, what drives me is that I think there are so many people in the world that are bending themselves out of shape to fit the context that they're in. They're fitting the situation. They think they have to operate in a different way, and they're not comfortable being themselves. And I think that's a very painful place. And I remember when I made that decision, it was a huge relief to me because I stopped carrying all of these masks and all of these cloaks around with me, and I could just be who I was. That was the reason, and and that's the reason I do this work is to make a difference in the world in that way.

Mick Spiers: 5:36

Yeah, well done, Frans. Firstly, sorry for your loss with your wife, and the fact that you're continuing the legacy of something that you build together I'm, I'm going to say is beautiful. So thank you for sharing that. There were two major things that that jumped out for me, and your business is integral leadership dynamics, and I think that's going to come up again in later in in the topic in this discussion, because of the things that you're sharing here, there were two major things. One was this hesitation to sign the contract. I want to unpack that a little bit, and then the second one is this deeper discussion around authenticity. But let's go one at a time. That's really interesting. Like, so I'm going to say there's an element of situational awareness of not just going, why am I? You're not just pausing and not signing. You have the awareness to go, why am I not signing? And I think with any kind of procrastination, and we all suffer it from it at times. My view is that procrastination is trying to tell you something, and if we're not paying attention to what it's telling us, we might just push ourselves and go, "Oh, this is silly, and just sign it." And then your amazing business and everything you do today wouldn't exist.

Frans Campher: 6:56

Wouldn't exist, exactly right.

Mick Spiers: 6:58

But you noticed and named and went, "Oh, hang on a second! Something's not right here." Tell us more about that process. That three days.

Frans Campher: 7:07

You know, I don't think I am at the time understood, but I had a gut feeling, and and so these days I talk about three centers of wisdom. I have my brain, I have my heart, and I have my gut, and I think far too many of us are in our heads, and we're stuck in the data and the information that's flying around. And in the current state of AI and everything else, that's quite dangerous to be in just that space. But I think I was practicing at the time. It was kind of new to me that my gut was saying there was something wrong. Yeah, my heart wasn't in it. My head said, "Great, great contract, great salary, etc." You'd have all the perks and and so on, but that wasn't enough for me. And and so the sense of and I think we we have to tune into what is our body telling us, what is our heart telling us, what is our gut telling us, as well as what our head is telling to it. And it's interesting. Subsequent to that, in making decisions, I always ask my head, heart, and gut. And if my heart and my gut go in one direction, my head goes in the other. I always go with my heart and my gut because I've I've had that as an experience. And of course, I'm going to interrogate the data and the information, but I'm I'm really going to go with my heart and my gut because I believe that that's more akin to who I am authentically, so that's that's kind of how that emerged for me, and I've honed that over time. Over time, I've paid more and more attention to what's really going on in my whole body. That makes sense.

Mick Spiers: 8:34

Yeah, really interesting, Francs. I think there's a lot of things there that we don't fully yet understand in the in the the world of psychology. When it comes to things like intuition, gut feelings, your head, heart, gut situation, our moral foundations sometimes are being challenged, but we don't really know it, or there's something, there's just something doesn't feel right, and I'm going to say that a lot of people convince themselves that oh, but I'm a rational thinker. I'm a, I'm a evidence based thinker and all this kind of stuff. But I'm going to tell people it's not necessarily true. Those those heart and gut feelings that there is something there, even if you don't understand them, to take the time and go. And this is a model I use for answer. Bear with me for a moment. Where an emotion hits, and I go, "What is this emotion? Why this emotion? Why this emotion now? In other words, what triggered me, and what is it trying to tell me? And from the what, what is it trying to tell me? You can then think about what is the optimal response? How does that sit with you? Yeah. What is that trying to tell me?

Frans Campher: 9:46

Yeah, I love that. What you're trying to tell me, I think, is the really powerful question. Yes, it is.

Mick Spiers: 9:52

Yeah, good. Okay. All right. So let's get to this authenticity. And there were multiple things that you said in the introduction. That I want to unpack, and I want to start with"I am enough. I am enough." So Frans looking himself in the mirror and says, "Actually, why am I pretending to be this other person when I am enough?" Now there is going to be people listening to the show that go, "Oh, that's a three words." That's really easy to say, harder to believe. There's a lot of people that have nagging doubts. I myself have come through this journey, by the way, friends. I believe that I'm enough. Of course, I still have some doubts from time to time on a new task or something like this. But someone listening to the show who's got persistent self-doubt that's not sure. How do they process? I am enough.

Frans Campher: 10:45

Nice. I'm going to say something that will sound a little bit controversial, if that's okay. There's the anomalous that people use. There's something called imposter syndrome. It drives me insane that we have something called syndrome because it makes it much bigger than it actually is. So my belief is that we have imposter thoughts, but we do not have a syndrome. So that's the first thing I want to say. And if you go with me on that, then what is possible is that I have thoughts of doubt, and that's a human characteristic that I doubt that I'm good enough, or should I be in this position? Do I have everything I need? Am I going to be absolutely 100% on day one? Probably not. Those doubts are just human, and then it's to understand where do those doubts arise from, and if you can start to dig into the many times that actually, if I showed up authentically who I was, things went well. I handled things well, etc. And you build this through practice that you start to trust yourself, and you can try on little things and say, "Let me show up authentically today and see what happens." And all of a sudden, I was finding that people were listening to me, they were more engaged with me, they were interested in what I was saying. The more authentic I was, because I think I was be I was using the techniques of how am I going to you know influence you? How am I going to build rapport? And people smell it a malov. They smell it that actually this is a technique, and so they start to discount you when you show up genuinely and you start to practice. People go, "Ah, there's the real guy. I can hear him. I can understand. And and actually, he's more like me than I thought he was." And so that's really what's powerful. I I think we have to do it in small steps, test it out, and we emerge in a way that we go. Ah, am okay. Who I am is okay, and therefore I can be at my best by having all of the thoughts that I have. Sometimes I have doubts, that's for sure. But that's human, and when you show those doubts to your people, they go, Ah, this person's human. They like me. They they've had the same foibles that I have, and that I think allows so much to be created out of that space, rather than the strive for you have to be this kind of person in this kind of. It's not human enough, in my opinion, anyway. I say that, Mick.

Mick Spiers: 13:14

Yeah, really good. So the things I'm picking up there. So to have doubts is human. So remind you, remind yourself of that and give yourself a bit of a leave pass on that. It's okay to have doubts. It really is. Part of it actually led to what we're talking about with the emotional intelligence part. What is this doubt trying to draw my attention to? And it's what it's drawing your attention to is something that is important. That doesn't mean shy away from it. Go. It means, oh, what is it about this that I need to pay attention to? And then to give yourself the license was the next part. Give yourself a license that you don't have to be perfect. No one expects you to be perfect. There is no human that is perfect. And then what I'm picking up is this difference between performative, and I want to come back to that word later. Performative and authentic performance, or authentic being being me, and the authentic being me is human, and therefore relatable. And now I've got someone in front of me that we will unpack the performative word a bit later. But when someone is performative, people smell it from a mile away, as you said, and they start going, "What is this shit?" Sorry to swear for a second.

Frans Campher: 14:24

It's true.

Mick Spiers: 14:25

And when the person is open and honest about this is who I am and what I'm feeling right now, oh, well, that Frans guy he's, he's a bit like me. I kind of relate to that guy. I want to have a chat with him, and all of a sudden we've got connection.

Frans Campher: 14:40

Correct. Yeah, exactly right. And so I want to build on what you just said because I think it's something that I'm starting to practice, and I hope this lands well. Is that when I feel my emotions, I'm starting to change the language I use. So I'm I'm moving away from I am angry to I have feelings of anger. What that gives me is a separation from the anger, and then I can examine and observe the anger and go, where does this arise from? It makes it much easier. Then it's not part of my identity when I'm having a look at the anger that is arising with the frustration or the joy or whatever it is, there's an observer role in this, and I think that's it's starting to to pay real dividends for me because I'm I'm not reacting anymore. I'm responding in a more powerful way to what's what's arising, rather than reacting to it and and it escalates. So I just wanted to share that as an idea.

Mick Spiers: 15:40

That's really good. I think we'll come back to that one as well. And this power of identity, I'm experiencing anger right now. Not I am angry because I am angry becomes a bit of your identity, and and when we'll unpack later how powerful that is. But I'm experiencing anger can now come back to our. So yeah, why, why, why am I experiencing it? What is it? What is this drawing my attention to? And then I can actually come up with a calculated response, not a, not a knee-jerk reaction. Yeah, yeah, very good. Okay, this word performative, and I'm going to share a personal one that I am struggling with. I'd say "Oh no, I'm going to say I'm working on it." I get accused of that at times, friends, and and when I say accused of, it's true, by the way, and I know it to be true. So, in a one-on-one situation, in a team leadership situation, I do feel very comfortable to show up as my authentic self when I do keynote speaking and I stand on a stage, something switches immediately before I go on stage, and I feel like I am a performer. That I'm the role of keynote speaker is being played by Mick Spiers today. It feels like a performance, and I get that feedback from people later, even though they enjoy my presentations. They say, "Yeah, where's the real Mick?"

Frans Campher: 17:03

Where are you? Yeah, where are you?

Mick Spiers: 17:06

Yeah, and I think I'm going to share my own thoughts on this, and I'm trying to break it. By the way, I'm just trying to be myself when I go on stage these days, but I haven't mastered it yet. But I think it's because I admire so many other keynote speakers, and I think, oh well, I've got to, I've got to mimic them, and that's where I think I'm going wrong. So I'm getting a free coaching session here. What are your thoughts there, friends, about that mimicry?

Frans Campher: 17:33

Yeah, I think it's useful to. There are certain techniques, you know, eye contact, how we might use our hands. There are things that we can do that I think are powerful, and very often we're picking those up. But I really do, and Mick, if I can help you with this in any way, I would love to to do that. Is the more you settle into yourself without overemphasizing and over dramatizing. The more grounded you will be, and I think the more influential you will be in the presentations that you are. So it's it's a case of yes, there are things that are going to be useful for me to do. I can pause the power of the pause, the techniques. I know the techniques, but I've got to make my own, and they've got to look completely natural. And I've got to come across as me. And if you do that, man. I, you know, there's no doubt. If I look at my own journey for 25 years of doing this kind of work, I've come an incredibly long way. I was highly performative in the early years, and I was trying to put on a show, and I was trying to make myself and actually come away completely that I can be very comfortable in my skin, how I am, and I have voidables, and I have things that I probably do that I shouldn't be doing. But actually, people go, "Man, that was outstanding!" You know, it was really influential and so on.

Mick Spiers: 18:50

All right, thank you. So my takeaway there is, I can still lean into techniques like rhetoric, and because they work, because they work, but not to be a performer, to just use it as a tech, a communication technique, but to be just be myself, just be myself. Okay, so let's come, let's bring that back to the workplace now. That was my example. I use this word mimicry. I think a lot of us fall into this trap. We get promoted into either our first leadership role, or it might be our first senior or executive leadership role, and we start mimicking the behavior of the leaders become that came before us. Instead of checking in for who who I want to be and who I am, we start going, oh, but every VP before me behaved like this. How do we break that pattern, Frans?

Frans Campher: 19:41

So one of the things that I say to people who come on the the imperial program with me is that leadership development is as much about remembering as it is about developing new skills. And and why I me say that and what I mean about that is every one of us have had poor leaders. And every one of us have good leaders. We know what great leadership looks like. We get promoted, and for some damn reason, we get amnesia, and we forget, and we don't remember. And so I say to people, if you were being led by you, what would you want from you? You cannot believe the number of people say, "Oh my God, that's the best question I've ever been asked." Because I've been bending myself out of shape to try and be like my previous boss or the VP, and actually, man, I hate it. I hate the fact that, and here I'm catching myself doing exactly what they're doing because I've got amnesia, and they say that's the best question I've ever been asked because now I know what I need to do, and they come back to that place where they come from. This is what I would want from me. So, oh man, I know how to do that. It's fascinating when, and and it's just it's just that one little question unlocks so much potential in my view. Anyway that's, that's how I look at it.

Mick Spiers: 20:59

Yeah, really good friends. So I have a model that I developed called the amalgam leader. I'm going to unpack it now, and where it stemmed from is watching this mimicry and they're mimicking behavior of a leader that they didn't even like. They didn't like that leader. So why are you doing it now? But the power and listening to what you said, we've all had good leaders, bad leaders, somewhere in between. Not everyone's perfect. Some had better these skills, but didn't like this, etc. So I I do this kind of cataloging activity of think of all of the leaders that you've had in the past, the good, the bad, the ugly, those that inspired you, those that demotivated you. But the key question is, what specifically did they do that inspired you. What specifically did they do that made you feel two inches tall? And by the way, it can be in the same leader. It might be something like where you go, I really like the way they did this, but I hated it when they did this, and you start doing this catalog to develop your own model of leadership that says, I'm the kind of leader who does do these things? I'm the kind of leader who would never do these things, and you start building your own catalog. How how does that sit with you?

Frans Campher: 22:09

Oh, that's a fantastic. I think that's a fantastic exercise. And Mick, I'm I'm going to ask for permission to steal that from you because I think the cataloging is just brilliant because it gives a very, it'll give a very clear indication of the behaviors that I would want to share, not share, how I want to operate. I kind of do it as a mental exercise rather than as a real exercise in writing like that, which I think would be outstanding.

Mick Spiers: 22:34

Yeah, fantastic. Please go ahead and use it.

Frans Campher: 22:36

Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

Mick Spiers: 22:38

All right. The next challenge I have for you. I still feel like we're doing a lot of learning from others, which is fine, as we've just said. It's got to be part of it. I still feel like we're dealing a lot with what I'd call societal expectations, where we're externalizing what's expected of me. At the heart of authenticity, though, is who we are. There's going to be people listening to this interview, friends, and and they hear this. They hear this. Oh, be yourself. What if they don't know who they really are?

Frans Campher: 23:10

Well, that is a difficult question for most most of us. We haven't sat and considered where we've come from. And one of the exercises that I get leaders to do is to do a life story exercise, a life and leadership story exercise in 10-year bands, and many people have done this sort of exercise. And there's a great article in Harvard called "Discovering Your Authentic Leadership" and it talks about this exercise where you look at the highs and lows of your life all the way through. And you start to spot the patterns, how you were formed, how your strengths were formed, how some of the you know some of the poor behaviors that you show where they stem from, etc. And when you do that, and plus doing a values inventory, you start to discover what your essence is. You see the patterns. You see the the things that you're really good at that come to you naturally, and you want to foster those and build those. So, without self reflection and really thinking about the big events in your life that have shaped you to this point, yeah, it's a guessing game. And those reflective exercises can be quite painful, actually, because you're dealing with some stuff, and I have some stuff in my past that was really tough for me to deal with. But it shaped me in a particular way, and when I know that, then I can operate from that from a position of strength and awareness, rather than as you talked a little bit earlier. We sometimes get triggered, and we go, "Where does that come from?" And it's a subconscious something that's happened in the past that subconsciously is driving us. Once I'm aware of it, I go, "Ah, there's my friend." And then I can say, you know, rather than I'm feeling frustrated or I am frustrated, I have feelings of frustration. I see I'm being triggered, and I I can link it back to where it's come from. And I go okay, that was then. This is now, and it's different. And I can start to choose my responses in a different way. So it's. I think it's a reflective exercise to get there, to understand where I come from, and then to be genuinely curious about how does that arise. Is that still true for me? And how can I do that differently going forward?

Mick Spiers: 25:21

Yeah, really, really good, and I'm kind of feeling like it's a lot of deep work there, Frans. But if you don't do it, you won't get the answer to who you truly are. And going through, you are, you are the makeup of all kinds of things, everything from genetics to epigenetics to experiences that you've had 40 years ago, and some of it might have been trauma that you've never fully processed, but it's still sitting there. And now, but if you've done that work to go, oh, oh yeah, I do know that about me. I do get, I do get triggered when someone uses that certain phrase, but at least now I know about it. And this, this whole thing about what is this emotion? Why this emotion? Why this emotion now? If you've done this deep work, you can you can pick it up faster, and you can go, oh, okay, I know this one. I love what you said. Here's my friend. Here's my friend. It might be here's my friend out. Here's my friend out in my right ear again. What am I going to do with it?

Frans Campher: 26:22

Yeah, because of that previous experience, that's a friend that's saying to you, "Be careful, and then your your assessment is, "Oh no, it's not." You know, we're not in the same place as we were then, and you start to deal with it differently. I think that's my own experience, anyway.

Mick Spiers: 26:39

Yeah, cool. We're not in the same experience that we were then. I want to unpack that one because one of the things that we're doing here, Frans, we're not just getting to know ourselves. We're actually learning, growing, and adapting. Right. So I'm going to share with you that I turned 53 last week, and I have this funny story I tell people that my software version 5.3 downloaded overnight, and I hope 5.3 is wiser than 5.2 and doesn't have too many defects and latent latent defects and bugs. But I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago. The world is not the same as it was 30 years ago. So this is not a what I'm trying to say is this is not a one and done exercise. I now know who Mick Spiers is because Mick Spiers 5.3 is different to Mick Spiers 4.3. How does that fit in, Frans? How do we continue this?

Frans Campher: 27:28

What you're saying makes total sense to me, just in terms of of as we grow, as we develop, and as we deepen our our humanity and what we're up to. So the work that I do is around vertical development. So that's exactly what you're talking about. The update of the software and who we are. I won't tell you what version I'm on. I'll scare the heck out of you, so I won't do that. All I can tell you is, man, you're young. I wish I was.

Mick Spiers: 27:54

Well, you look 53 as well. I've got to say, right? But anyway, okay.

Frans Campher: 27:57

That's really funny. So yeah, that makes sense to me. Is that if we are reflecting regularly, you know, I journal a lot, and I and I and I journal and I write down. I've had these thoughts. I've had this thought. I'm noticing these thoughts, and all of a sudden you start to become acutely aware of what's going on for you and how you are responding. So you don't get caught out in doing that. So for me, that constant reflection and improvement. Can you imagine if at the end of every day you spend five minutes to say, "How did I do today? What went really well? What could be better tomorrow? And what am I going to do differently tomorrow? What what happens to your development?" And I say "Ufortunately, whenever I'm in the programs and the work that I do, there's no destination to this thing." Unfortunately, this thing called leadership. There's no destination. You never get to the end, and there's no place for that. It's a continuous journey, continuous improvement. How do I reflect? How do I get better every single day? So that's how I I look at it, and I try and encourage my clients to do that, and the people that I work with.

Mick Spiers: 29:07

Yeah, really good. I've got five questions I've asked myself every day for 14 years now, which is, what went well today, what didn't go well today, what would I do differently next time when faced with a similar situation, what did I learn about myself, and what did I learn about others?

Frans Campher: 29:27

Nice. Yeah, I like I like that last one. What did I learn about others? Because I think often we we might be too introspective, and we're not noticing what what else is happening with other folks. So that's a that's a really cool question. Again, I'm going to steal that one from you. That's okay.

Mick Spiers: 29:43

Go for it, sir. So, and that last one is what I want to go to now because we've spoken about the fact that version 5.3 of us is different to version 4.3. The next part, when I when I look at your your words, dynamic leadership in a disruptive world. Here's the next harsh truth, the people that you're leading are also not the same person that they were six months ago. So if we have a fixed model of here's this person and he's really good at this, but he's not good at this. No, you're dealing with someone that is also learning, growing, and evolving every day. So you're in a dynamic organism, like you're a different person than you were yesterday from your collective experiences, and the person that you're leading in front of you is different to the person that showed up six months ago. And and if you're not noticing and naming their growth, you're stuck in an old model of oh, but this worked for them six months ago. Why is it not working now? So how do we how do we get the dynamic leadership here now that to recognize that we're evolving, but so is everyone around us?

Frans Campher: 30:52

I love that question. That's such a great question. There's a I don't know if you've come across this book, Mick. There's a there's a book by Harbinsher Institute that talks about leadership and self-deception, and the central premise of it is that every one of us carry files related to the people that we are interacting with, and we fill these files up with nonsense. Then, and we hold those files, and then when we meet them today, the file is already active, and we have boxed them into they this kind of person, and the presupposition is, what would it be like if that every time you met this person, you met them fresh? What would you see? What what would be possible without those files being active? And so that's very simple to say. But if you can do that, I mean, it's immensely powerful to say, "I'm going to meet you fresh today." Let me see what how you show up, and I'm not going to have any presuppositions about you, or you know, or bad thoughts about you. And then we see what arises. And I think that allows different possibilities to arise if we can do that. Now, am I disciplined enough to do it every time. There are people that are close to me that I find very and very difficult to work with, very frustrating, and I've got to keep clearing out the files. I've got to keep doing that. I've got to be purposeful about that.

Mick Spiers: 32:13

Yeah, nice. Okay, so I like this reset element. I'm going to throw another word at you, and I think that what it requires is presence and mindfulness. I'm going to share a story that happened in the workplace yesterday, and this this was in my journal last night, by the way. And I won't use the person's name, but I need to contact them both today to tell them how proud I have of proud I am of what I saw yesterday, so I can close the loop with them. So two things. One is one of our senior project managers was presenting yesterday to what's called our Asia Pacific project reviews. Okay, and I will openly say that this person, in the past, has struggled in those presentations, struggled to articulate themselves with clarity, and then yesterday I held space, and guess what? They knocked it out of the park. They really did something here. The second element of it is I discover later that one of my direct reports, who I coach a lot, has been coaching them on how to prepare better and all this kind of stuff. So it was like this double pride moment of this guy that I've been coaching has been paying it forward to another another project manager. I'm so proud of both of them, but what I'm seeing is I'm seeing two. Let's use a metaphor of of a garden. I'm seeing two beautiful plants blossom in front of me, and if I stick with yesterday's memory of, and I won't use their name, but I'll tell them privately today, person X is never good at this. I'm going to rescue them before they stumble in front of the big boss, he would never have blossomed. He would never have blossomed.

Frans Campher: 34:07

Exactly, that's so cool. So that goes to what we were saying earlier about the ripple effect of what the work is. If we work in that way, the ripple effect is so cool, isn't it? It really is. That's wonderful.

Mick Spiers: 34:19

Yeah, but if I'm not present and leading the person that is emerging in front of me, if I'm leading the person that I knew six months ago, I've missed a trick. But if I'm leading the person that's emerging in front of me, we're going to get a better result. Everyone is going to get a better result.

Frans Campher: 34:37

Exactly. Yeah, and the reticular activating system will work, so I'm expecting this person to do well, and they will. Kind of allows them; it gives them that mission. But the word presence, I think, is such a powerful word. If you think about the great leaders, and whether it be great sportsmen, great leaders, they all have time. They all. Have time, they have presence, and they they don't move quickly. They move at a pace that is right, and they meet people where they are. I was fortunate enough years ago, years and years ago, to meet Nelson Mandela, and I got to speak to him for three minutes. Three minutes changed my life, because in those three minutes he was totally present with me, and we were in we were in a charity ball. I was on the organizing committee. He was there, and you know he was the guest speaker that night. And he got introduced to the organizing committee, and he stopped in front of me. This was in London, and he said to me, "You from South Africa?" I said, "Yes, I'm from Southern Africa." But yeah, from South Africa, he said, and he started speaking to me, and I felt like I was the only person in the room. He wasn't talking to anybody else. He wasn't distracted by anybody else. And then halfway through his conversation with me, somebody took him by the elbow, said, "Mandela, we need to move on." He said, "Hey, I'm busy." And he he just said, "Go away, I'm busy." And he was chatting to me, saying, "You know, we need you back in South Africa. We need talented people there. You know, what are you doing in London? Come back there." And we was having this really cool conversation. But I felt so cool because he was so focused on me. And so this idea of presence-I think we do. I don't think we give that enough to our people, do we? Listen really intently. And if if we have time, I'd love to talk about listening to understand. It's taken me many years to get to that place where I can listen to understand, and and you can't do that if you're not really present with somebody and looking at how they're showing up and creating the space for them to be at their best. I think that's really useful.

Mick Spiers: 36:41

Let's go there. This is a topic we discuss often on the show, but I want to hear Frans perspective. I want to add something on presencing, and then let's talk about listening to understand. So I think there's a double whammy with that presencing. So listening to your story about Mandela, which is a wonderful experience, that's impacted you for the rest of your life, I can tell. But we we have that opportunity for those micro moments every day with our people. That they all want to feel seen, they all want to feel heard, they all want to feel like they matter. And the best gift that you can give them is your presence to show them that they're seen, heard, and that they matter. So you're giving them something that makes them walk away feeling better. Oh, the boss really paid attention to me today. The double whammy is you start seeing the whole of the person, and you'll start picking up things that if you were distracted and all over the place, you would have missed 80% of what was in front of you. So you're richer from the experience, and they walk away feeling good about themselves. Of yeah, what I do matters. What I do matters. So there's a double whammy there. Now tell us what's your definition of listening to understand, and what was that transition for you?

Frans Campher: 38:01

Yeah, I think very often we are in business meetings, and people are doing one or two things, they're listening to have their say, so they're waiting for the gap to have their say. And I was one of those for a long, long time. Highly competitive, wanted to win, wanted to win the arguments, wanted to win the conversations, get out in front of everything, and I was a pain in the ass. I really was because I really was trying to get to you know a good outcome. My intentions were right, but men' intentions be damned. It's the impact that you're having, and over time, I've learned actually, and and I think it comes a bit with maturity and experience where you start to settle, and as somebody speaking, I might be saying in my head, "Man, I don't agree with any of this, but I'm actually not going to try and interject at all." I'm going to listen so that I can say to this person, "Have I heard you correctly?" This is your perspective. And what happens is they go, "Yep, yep, you got me." And you see them visibly relax. Then I can say I have a different perspective, and they will be open to my perspective because I have heard them. And because I've heard them does not mean I agree. And that's a distinction that I don't think is the fact that I've heard you, I've understood your perspective. I have a different perspective. Now we can say, what do we do with these two perspectives? What can we create out of this that will be even better for the both of us? And so that idea of win-win out of listening to understand, I think, is one of the most powerful things that we can do. You cannot do that if you're not present, and if you're not genuinely interested in what this person is saying, because in that deep understanding of what they think, you can get a real understanding of the intrinsic motivations, what's happening for them, and then you can present yourself in a way that's not in in competition at all, but it's a different perspective, and then we. Can build something that's even better, and that's that's how I approach it, and and and try and make that happen whenever I'm talking to somebody in that way.

Mick Spiers: 40:08

Really good, Frans, and I'm going to practice it right now. So, what I'm hearing from you, Frans, is that you, like many, fall into this trap of you were falling into this trap, I should say, of waiting for your turn to talk, and that's not the same as listening. I'll put it to you that the next step beyond that might have been only listening to the things that confirm what you already believe, and not actually listening to any contrary information that's being presented. And you're-it sounds like to me, you're listening to win. You're not even listening to understand, and you've now upgraded to what Otto Sharma would call generative listening, where I might not agree with you, but if we put your perspective together with my perspective, we're both going to walk away from this conversation richer. And the other part I picked up, and this is I'm going to say this is so true, is if we don't listen to understand and show the other person that okay I don't agree with you, but this is what I'm hearing, you're going to end up in a situation where you're trying to get your point across. And guess what? They're now not listening to you because in their mind they're going. I'm going to say this out loud, Frans. That Frans, you're just not listening to me. You're just not listening. And if they're in, you're just not listening to me territory. Forget putting your idea on the table. So by giving them a deep listening to, to give them the courtesy that hey, I'm hearing these three things. All of a sudden, they go, "Yeah, I feel heard. I feel heard, so now I'm willing to listen to you, Frans."

Frans Campher: 41:46

I'm willing, correct? Because if you don't, exactly what you said, they'll dig a moat around what they were thinking, and you will not move them off that place. They will dig a moat and they'll fight you to the death because you haven't heard them. So, and again, it came came with a bit of maturity, I think, that I started to understand that that actually, let me listen, let me understand, and then we can go from there. Let's see where we go.

Mick Spiers: 42:09

Cool. And in those conversations where it happens, what ends up happening is both parties walk away from that meeting with the same understanding that they had before the meeting. So you might as well have not had the meeting.

Frans Campher: 42:22

Precisely, precisely.

Mick Spiers: 42:24

Very good. Okay, I got one more topic I want to explore now, and we're going to get a bit youngy in psychology here. But when we talk about identity and authenticity, the one that keeps showing up is the mask, right? So the masks that we wear, that we, I'm going to say I do it myself. I'll stick up my hand. It's not just the mimicry and the I'm playing the role of today. There's something deeper here, friends, and that is, I hide the bits that I'm not so proud of. I hide the bits that I'm not so proud of. So when I feel like I know where it comes from, it's self-protection mechanism. But I've got this deep question of when is the mask serving me, and when is it not serving me? Like, so if I to this authenticity part, if I shed every every single thought that pops into my head, I'm a fallible human being. I have thoughts in my head sometimes that I'm not proud of. So in that situation, does the mask is the mask a good thing? So when is the mask a good thing? When is the mask not a good thing? That's that's the one I'm struggling with.

Frans Campher: 43:34

That's a good question and, and I'll answer it as best I can from my own experience. I'm not a scholar for sure, but just to say that I think we obviously obviously have to be smart in the space that we're in, and in the culture that we're in, or in the organization that we're in. There are paradoxes to being authentic. We have to pay attention to those. What I want to be doing though is not bending myself out of shape in the mask that I'm wearing, and so I'm being true to myself. But I'm also being smart about. So if I'm talking to a finance guy and all he's interested is in the facts, etc. I'm not going to start talking about my heart tells me this and my gut tells me that. I'm not going to do that. That's just stupid because he's just going to say, "What the heck is this guy talking about? I don't want to listen to him at all." So I'm going to use a bit of a mask around that to say, "Hmm, my intuition tells me the facts say this." My intuition says that. What are we going to do with that? I'll use my language slightly differently in to match what I'm I'm seeing in front of me, but I'm not going to bend myself totally out of shape. You know that for for I did that for far too long. It was too exhausting, and I think it cost me some of my health in order to bend myself out of shape until I made the decision that who I was was okay. And now I will never go back. I'll never go back. I've been in and around in. For I think it's 12 years, and every now and again I ask them, "Remember the guy that came the first year? Is that the same person that you see today?" And they go, "Yeah, absolutely, it's the same person." So I test it just to check, am I staying true myself through all of that as well? So, but we have to be smart. We have to be smart in in the face of what what's in front of us, for sure?

Mick Spiers: 45:22

Yeah, you've given me a powerful technique, friends, and thank you for that. I'm going to parrot it back to you a little bit, so tell you what I'm taking away from it, and what I'm going to look at how I'm going to try to apply that. So it's not healthy when we're bending ourselves out of the shape and betraying our own values and morals, and if we're going home feeling incongruent, where that just wasn't me today, that just didn't feel right, then you've bent yourself out of shape. But the counterbalance is it's okay to have a filter, and the filter. So the lesson here for everyone is: being your authentic self doesn't mean just saying every thought that pops into your head because I'm being authentic. It's okay to have a filter and think, okay, how does the situation need me to show up today? And having a filter is okay. Being incongruent is potentially not okay. How does that sound?

Frans Campher: 46:17

I love that as a distinction. The way you've said that is actually perfect for me is that being incongruent means I'm bending myself. I'm hurting myself as I'm doing this. I will probably resent it. I'll probably not be at my best. But I have to be. I have to filter for what's in front of me. The context matters. You know, if I'm in a in if I'm in a highly what's the word I want to highly pressurized situation, how am I going to show up? I'm going to make sure I show up in the right possible way. I'm a really casual guy, but if I'm in a really formal situation, I have to pay attention to the formality. You know, I can't walk onto into the boardroom and I say to the chairman, "Hi, Mick, how you doing today?" It's chairman, chairman. I talked to you about. You know what I mean. I will adopt the formality of what the context is that I'm I'm in. I've got to be smart about that, but I'm also still going to be myself in the middle of that. I'm going to have my voice. I'm going to say speak the way I need to speak. I say the things. Sometimes I'm going to be challenging, but I'm not going to bend myself out of shape to fit the context. I love the way that you just said that. In terms that incongruency is not not healthy.

Mick Spiers: 47:26

Yeah, really good. All right, Francs, you've given us wonderful takeaways today. I've I've loved this entire conversation. If if I can say at the heart of it, this we do come back to the your book title, dynamic leadership in a disruptive world. The first thing we'll work backwards and say, the environment in which we work, which is the environment of the world, the environment of the economy, the environment of today's politics, the environment of emerging technologies, AI, the environment of the people that we're leading. All of these things is changing every day, and we are changing every day. And dynamic leadership is to notice, name, to process, and go. Oh, that was interesting. What was that? What was it trying to tell me? This head, heart, gut that you're telling us about Frans, and and not to ignore any of them. To actually pay attention and go, what is this trying to tell me, and how do I need to make subtle adjustments to my leadership as we go? Then a big part of that is you're going to learn who you are, who you truly are, and now you can start showing up as your authentic self. But that authentic self is also a growing organism. It's the authentic version 5.3 is not the same as authentic version 4.3. So it's a work in progress always, and you're always nurturing and growing. Your job as a leader is to tap into that and to to go on that journey. But to realize this was the other part of our discussion. To realize that, guess what? When you look at that garden, that that environment that you're cultivating, and you might have 300 people in your organization. Guess what? All of those 300 people are growing. So we need to dynamically adjust. And the one of the ones that I loved in our discovery today, friends, was to lead the person that's emerging in front of you, not your memory of where they were six months ago, and and to have that presence, the presence was a beautiful lesson as well, and the element of deep listening and generative listening with that presence, you will learn more when you look at the whole of the person that's in front of you, and the person walks away feeling seen, heard, and and valued. So there was a big lesson there, and this final part about this mask that there's a difference between incongruence and filter. It's okay to have a filter. The incongruence is the bit that's gonna. I'm gonna say do. It's going to make you not feel good. It's going to it's going to do damage to you over the time. So they are my takeaways today. Anything you want to add to that before we go to our repertoire?

Frans Campher: 50:10

Yeah, sure. And there is a concept that I've been talking about that I think is is quite useful for us to think about from a leadership development point of view. I talk about leadership development, and I use the orchestra as a analogy. And and and so, I joined the orchestra. I'm a violinist, and I play beautiful music, and I'm outstanding at what I do. And after a few years, somebody says to me, "We'd like you to become the lead violinist." And so now I still play the instruments, and I'm I've got to look after the sections, and my responsibilities are a bit expanded, and I'm looking after the section, but I've also still got to play beautiful music. And then somebody says to me, "Would you please put down the violin and pick up this thing, and become the conductor?" And if you think about the expansion from managing to leading, it takes that. One of the biggest challenges I'm finding with leaders is the change in identity from being an expert to an achiever to a catalytic leader? That identity shift for many is a real struggle, and I think one of the things and mistakes that we are making in leadership development is we throwing skills at people, but they don't have the foundation in place, the identity, the values, the leadership signature, the way that they want to show up, on which those skills should be grounded, and I think that's a miss in in the way that we are looking at leadership development. If the foundation is right, then the the skills are going to the bed, and you're going to get because if you think about the conductor, the conductor can't play instruments. The power doesn't come from the instruments, it comes from the way that we orchestrate the people around us. And I think that's the true measure of leaders that they can orchestrate highly talented people, high-performing people, in a way that plays the most magnificent music. And so that's what I'm up to from an authenticity point of view, but also from a point of view of what's the identity that I need in order to be successful as that conductor. So I just wanted to say that, if you didn't mind, just in terms of approach from a leadership development point of view.

Mick Spiers: 52:18

That's really good. Yeah, can I tell you that two things jump into my mind when when I hear it, Frans. The immediate one is, is what you're putting on the table, and and there was something my my mind was extrapolating when I was listening. If I if I can share that with you, so so the transitions that we need to make those leadership shifts from expert to achiever to catalytic leader is really really interesting for me, and one of the things that's going to be challenging for people there is what made you successful in your previous role may not at all make you successful in the new role if you if you don't make those shifts.

Frans Campher: 52:57

Precisely, it's an identity, mindset, and skill shift you have to do all through. It's major.

Mick Spiers: 53:03

Yeah, very good. And that can be a source of frustration because you can go. Well, I used to get applauded for these individual contributor things. Now it's holding me back. The things that I used to get on the stage and a prize for are now holding me back because I like your word catalytic leader. I use the word multiplier a lot. Your job is now to be a multiplier. It's it's not to be prolific anymore. Yeah, right. Now I'm going to tell you the other thing that was jumping into my head when I was listening to you go violin section of violins orchestra. To me, this is a lot of at the heart of co creation and generative listening, and your job then as the conductor-it could have been as the team leader of the string section, by the way. If if I'm using the right terms there, or even just the violin group to start with, there's something magical that's happening here, Frans. Like, so I bet you if, if we got you to grab your violin right now, and you played a violin solo. We would enjoy it. We would enjoy it. It would be nice if we then put you in a string quartet. Something new would come into existence that wouldn't exist with just that one violin. I'm I'm going somewhere with this. And then when we put you in a mini orchestra, something richer exists, and then when we go into a big orchestra, all of a sudden you've created something that is greater than the sum of the parts that wouldn't have existed. So this is the heart of co-creation. One violinist does not make an orchestra; it's the sum of all of those superstars sitting there. And what's the conductor's job? Is it to play any of those instruments?

Frans Campher: 54:46

No. Power comes from getting getting them to collaborate and work in the best possible way. Absolutely.

Mick Spiers: 54:52

That's it. Yeah. So very good. So there's transitions there, but there's also you're generating something that wouldn't have existed. You didn't do it. Yeah, really nice friends. Okay, right. Let's let's go to our our rapid round. These are the same four questions that we ask all of our guests.

Frans Campher: 55:09

I'll try and be good with this as well. Cool.

Mick Spiers: 55:12

All good. So, what's the one thing that you know now, Frans Campher, that you wish you knew when you were 20?

Frans Campher: 55:20

I think it's about competition and being more graceful in the way that I engage with the people around me, and seeking win wins rather than I must win, you lose. I think the infinite game. I wish I'd known that earlier. I think I would have been far more successful in the industry that I was in, insurance industry at the time. If I was more playing an infinite game rather than than I saw, I needed to win. You needed to lose. I think that's probably one of the biggest ideas I would have, yeah.

Mick Spiers: 55:54

Yeah, really nice. As an author yourself, what what is your favorite book?

Frans Campher: 56:00

Yeah so the one that I like a lot right now. So I'm going to be cheeky and say two books. Steve Covey's "Seven Habits" for me was was a life changer for me as a young leader. So I'm talking about 25 years old, and so that's been with me my entire life. I always start with the end in mind. I always, you know, all of the the seven habits. But recently, there's a lady that I I work with at Imperial, and now she goes out of my head. But she's, she's written it's Dr. Kath Bishop. She's written a book called "The Long Win." She's an ex Olympic rower, and I saw the medalist in rowing, and and then also a gold medal medalist in the World Championships, and she was also a diplomat in the Kosovo War, negotiating peace. So she brings a wonderful perspective around elite athlete, and also this idea of of negotiating in wartime. And she brings us into this idea of a long win. And I think far too much of our industry, what we're up to, particularly in America, quarterly results. Everything short term, and we don't play the long game. And I remember some years ago, the Unilever, the Unilever chief exec was in the earnings call in New York, and they were pounding him about his quarterly results. And he said, "Look, if you are looking at quarterly results, please take your money away and go and invest it somewhere else." I have this five-year plan. If you're not interested in the five-year plan, please take your money. And it was fascinating because I've never heard that happen before in New York, where the you know at the stock exchange we're saying, look, I I don't care, I don't need your money. I'm I'm successful enough and I'm confident enough that I'm going to get the results we need. I don't need you. So please take your money if you're not happy with my quarterly results because I'm not playing the quarterly game with you, and I just love that. I love that idea. And so she talks about the long win. What are the things we need to put in place for the long term, not the short term? I love that.

Mick Spiers: 57:54

Yeah, love that. There's two parts. I love that. I love the title, the long winner. I'm going to look into it. I don't know that one. The second part of the story you're talking about Wall Street. There, we've got to say that's what values look like when values stand up to here's this person with a big check. Are your values still intact?

Frans Campher: 58:11

Exactly, I love that.

Mick Spiers: 58:13

That's values. That's really cool. That's really cool. What's your favorite quote?

Frans Campher: 58:18

So the it's the Aristotle quote, and I'm going to misquote it, but it's on my business card, and I don't have one with me at the moment. But knowing yourself is the source of all knowledge and, and wisdom. So I I think you have to start here, and everything flows from there. And if you have that real self awareness, I think I think that's powerful.

Mick Spiers: 58:37

Very good, Frans. And finally, there's going to be people that are listening to the show probably self-diagnosing, maybe going, "Oh yeah, I I do that." I do that thing that Frans says "There's going to be people that would like to know more." How do they do this? How do they get in touch with who they really are? How do they understand their identity? How do they put this into practice? How do people find you if they'd like to know more about your work.

Frans Campher: 59:02

IL Dynamics is our website, so IL Dynamics. Um, you'll find me on LinkedIn if you just look for Frans Campher. You'll find me on LinkedIn, and you can find me on Amazon in the book. And in the book, there are exercises to do exactly what you've just been talking about. So, who am I? What's my sense of purpose, etc. So, the purpose exercises and so on, and I'm actually I'm in the process of just creating the workbook as a companion to the to the book, and that'll be available pretty soon as well. So I'll be doing that.

Mick Spiers: 59:33

All right, we'll put the links in the show notes as well. The book again, dynamic leadership in a disruptive world, Frans Campher, and the the business integral leadership dynamics so IL dynamics and you'll be able to find Frans or reach out to him on LinkedIn thank you so much Frans for your gift today the gift of your time the gift of your wisdom the gift of very practical and actionable insights that people can lean into and. And continue. It's not a one and done. Continue to work on themselves every single day to become the leader that you wish you always had, so that you can create the great environment for others. Thank you so much, Frans.

Frans Campher: 1:00:14

Thank you so much, Mick. Great to be with you.

Mick Spiers: 1:00:17

What a thoughtful and deeply human conversation with Frans Campher, the idea that really stayed with me is that leadership development is not only about adding more skills. Sometimes it's about remembering, remembering what good leadership felt like when we experienced it, remembering what poor leadership costs us when we were on the receiving end of it, remember who we were before we started wearing the masks we thought leadership required, because many leaders spend years bending themselves out of shape. They try to lead the way their boss led. They mimick leaders they think were successful. They put on the cloak of authority, certainty, toughness, distance, or performance, and over time, they can become separated from themselves. Because when a leader is wearing a mask, the team often starts managing the mask instead of relating to the human being. People become more careful. They read the mood. They perform for approval, they withhold what they really think, and they adapt around the leader's protection mechanisms. And this is why authenticity matters. But authenticity is not an excuse to be unfiltered. It's not saying, "Oh, this is just who I am, and asking everyone else to deal with the consequences, authenticity also requires responsibility." I also love Fran's challenge that dynamic leadership is not just about adapting to a disruptive world, it's about recognizing that we are dynamic too. We are not the same person we were six months ago. Our people are not the same people they were six months ago. Our teams are learning, changing, grieving, growing, adapting, and becoming. And if we keep leading from an old file in our mind of who we think they are, we're missing the person that's emerging in front of us, and that connects so strongly with something we often explore on the leadership project. Do not lead from the memory of the person, lead the person that's emerging in front of you. That requires deep listening, not listening to confirm what we already believe, not listening to win, not listening while we quietly prepare our rebuttal, but listening with enough openness to allow the other person to surprise us. So here is my invitation to you this week: pause and ask yourself three questions. What leadership mask am I still wearing? What old file am I still carrying about someone else? And if I were being led by me, what would I want from me? And then choose one small act of alignment. Listen more deeply. Name what matters. Show more trust. Let go of a mask. Update your view of someone else, or simply allow yourself to lead a little more from who you truly are. Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Leadership Project. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who may be ready to remove a mask and lead with more truth. And join us next week for a special solo cast, where I bring together the key threads from this month's conversations with Antoinette Roze, Dr. Ron Friedman, and Frans Campher. We will explore how leaders turn ideas into clarity, individual effort into team performance, and personal identity into authentic adaptive leadership. You've been listening to the Leadership Project. If today sparked an insight, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with one other person who would benefit from listening to the show. A huge thank you to Gerald Calibo for his tireless work editing every episode, and to my amazing wife Sei, who does all the heavy lifting in the background to make this show possible, none of this happens without them. Around here, we believe leadership is a practice, not a position. That people should feel seen, heard, valued, and that they matter. And that the best leaders trade ego for empathy, certainty for curiosity, and control for trust. If that resonates with you, please subscribe on YouTube and on your favorite podcast app. And if you want more, follow me on LinkedIn and explore our archives for conversations that move you from knowing to doing. Until next time, leave. With curiosity, courage, and care.