317. The Weight of Leadership: Presence, Perspective, and the Power of Reframing with Hank Minor

Leadership has a hidden cost we do not talk about enough: the quiet pressure of being the person everyone leans on while you wonder who you can lean on. Hank Minor joins me for a deeper conversation about the inner world of leadership, the emotional load leaders carry, and the moment the role starts consuming the person. Hank brings a rare mix of experience as a former counseling psychologist, a longtime CEO in a multigenerational manufacturing business, and a leadership mentor who now works with leaders at their threshold.

We dig into a problem every manager recognizes: people “download” their stress onto you, and if you do not have the right mindset and tools, you go home carrying a sack full of other people’s problems. Hank explains why perspective is the senior principle. He shares a practical mental model he calls bifocal vision: staying grounded at street level while also holding a wider context so you do not get lost in the weeds. We also talk about stress release and recovery, from mindfulness and meditation to hobbies, nature, and relationships, because sustainable leadership requires a way to offload pressure.

Then we take on reframing and presence. What if the hard conversation is not just a problem, but a gift and even a form of leadership training? What if giving and receiving are simultaneous, turning “transactional” interactions into relational trust? We explore how presence creates psychological safety, strengthens culture, and unlocks courageous conversations where people finally tell the truth about what is really going on.

If you take one thing away, let it be this: culture can start with one person, and that person can be you. 

🌐 Connect with Hank:
• Website: https://www.hankminor.com/
https://www.thewayofleadership.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hank-minor-ab865629b/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hankminorleadership/

Transcript

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Mick Spiers: 0:01

Have you ever felt the weight of leadership but didn't feel like you could show it? Have you ever been the one everyone relies on while quietly wondering who you can rely on? And have you ever stopped to ask yourself, at what point does the role you play start to consume the person you are, because here's the truth, Leadership isn't just a set of skills. It's an experience, and sometimes it's a heavy one. In today's episode, I sit down with Hank Minor for a conversation that goes far beyond tactics, frameworks or surface level leadership advice, this is a conversation about the inner world of leadership. We explore the invisible pressure that leaders carry, the accumulation of responsibility, expectation and emotional load that often goes unspoken. This is a deeper, more reflective conversation about leadership than the cost of carrying too much for too long. Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Leadership Project. I'm greatly honored today to be joined by Hank Minor. Hank Minor is a strategic leadership mentor with decades of experience in leadership who now works privately with leaders who are reaching that point of stress and strain, to the point where they may be at their threshold that things are starting to compound. They're carrying a whole heap of weight, and they're feeling like they don't know what to do. So this is going to be a really interesting conversation about the weight of leadership and what we can do to cope with the compounding stress that happens throughout our leadership career. So Hank without any further ado, I'd love to get you to introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us a little bit about your decades of experience in leadership, but most of all, tell us what inspires you to work with leaders that are at this point of their leadership career?

Hank Minor: 2:01

Mick, thanks very much for having me on the show. Real pleasure and an honor to be here. I've been at this leadership thing a while. My career started as a counseling psychologist. I was actually a psychotherapist. I came out of college facing entry into my family's business, and it just wasn't the right time for me to be there, and so I struck out on my own, and I simply wanted to find a way to help people. And the first form of that, the first expression of that, was counseling psychology. And so I became a licensed psychotherapist, and I worked with individuals and couples when I started a counseling center, which is still going today, that was back in the mid 1980s it was a great training ground for leadership, because there were, there was the listening skills and the compassion that we bring as psychologists and psychotherapists to people, and the desire to help make their lives better, which is what I feel leadership, in essence, is that was a very interesting time, because it morphed into people asking me to step out of my role as a psychologist and come to their workplace and work with them, personally, as leaders or with their teams, with their senior teams. I didn't see that one coming, and it was it changed my life. That's what really set my course, as far as what we would traditionally call a leader, and that consulting and training business led me, actually, very ironically and beautifully, back to my family's business, which was started in 1867 it was a multi generational family manufacturing business. We manufactured footwear, and I got to go in and test the theories and the exercises and things that I've been doing prior in my consulting and training work. It's one thing to do one off gigs, go in and help people for a week or a month or six months or whatever, but I actually ended up running this company for 28 years, and it was a multinational company, and it it really forced me to look deeply at my leadership and to shape it in a way that would be reflected in the growth of the company and the quality of the culture. The lessons that I learned in that 28 years could fill a book, and I'm in the middle of writing one, but it was in family businesses, as I'm sure you know, they're quite unique and full of dynamics and so on those years really were the fire that forged the steel of my future. And so there was that. And one other thread I want to pick up early on, when I was about 15 years old, I have a cousin who spent time in Japan. He was a potter, and he trained with one of their national treasures, and he came back and he started talking to me about Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and so on, Zen, Buddhism and so on. And I was 15 and very impressionable, and it opened up a door to a lifelong love of spiritual wisdom, contemplative wisdom. So what happened in three sort of conversion? Past was my the psychology training that I'd had, the day to day leadership I had in running this company, with all the challenges that come with that, and this thread of of spiritual and ancient wisdom going through so all of that was sort of parallel tracking. And then in 2012 I got up one night in my house and was walking over to the kitchen to see my wife, Laura, and I, the room started to spin, and I hit the deck. I woke up in an ambulance, and the next thing I knew, I was on an operating table, and they were taking a huge cancerous tumor out of the middle of my body. And it was all very graceful. It was over. It was over within 24 hours and this but what they said to me was, had I gone another 48 hours, I'd be dead. They took this tumor out that moment, that experience changed. And anybody who's had a chronic illness or a serious illness or cancer in particular, knows what I'm talking about. All of my priorities rearranged and reorganized in a second. In a flash, they reorganized, and I realized that there was something deeper to life, and I therefore, I sold the company. I retired. I was 63 years old. I retired, and I spent the next 10 years in a very simple, mindful, grateful, contemplative state. My wife and I have horses. I'm also a Falconer, and so I did, I did the things that would normally look like someone being retired would do. I had my hobbies, but what was going on there? Mick, which was really below the surface, I couldn't see it at the time, was these, these three threads that I was talking about, all came together and began to rise to the top of my awareness. It was not anything that I planned. It was not intentional, and it wasn't a revelation, but it was, it was something where I woke up one day and thought interesting, all of these things that were most meaningful in my life have now revealed themselves and woven themselves together in like a constellation. Is the best way I can talk about it. And I looked at that, and it was a body of knowledge and experience that was so profound to me. And I thought it's this is what my life has led me to. I mean, as I say, it wasn't personally or individually intentional on my part, but I felt like this was it was like being guided to this moment, to see this thing, that it that was my life. And at that point, I thought, This is not something that I can hold to myself anymore. This is now that I see it, and it's true for me. It's something that may well be important or meaningful to someone else. And so a little over two years ago, I came out of retirement, and so I want to work with leaders. I want to share with them what I've learned, what I've been through, and what I've learned so that they could potentially avoid some pitfalls along the way. They could hopefully compress the time between where they are and where they might want to be. And that's why the word mentor meant a lot to me. It was it's not, I'm not teaching people something, but I'm guiding them and standing with them as they go through these stages of leadership. And it's been an unbelievably rewarding experience over the last couple years. And the what I find is it was the right time for me, and it's the right time for many people, because in leadership, we're always looking to the future. We're looking to how we can improve ourselves and in my in my experience, it was not just the skills. In fact, the skills were relatively simple, whether it's communication skills or delegation or conflict results, all those the skills that we can learn. What I had to offer was a much deeper inner experience with leaders, where they could begin to adjust and align and develop qualities of leadership within themselves that then would be naturally expressed in their particular form of leadership. I had my personality in the way that I did it. Mick, you would have yours. But that inner alignment and that context of, who am I as a leader? Who am I? Not, not what do I do? But who am I? Who am I being as a leader in the things that I do? When we change the context of that, even just a little, we shifted just a little, it everything coming out of us lines up, and then it's expressed from that new point of view, and that's that's what's been really rewarding for me, but also helpful for the leaders with whom I work at various stages of their arc, their leadership arc. And so it's taking everything that's been given to me and then turning around and sharing that to help other people. And so whether there's. Starting their career, whether they're an established leader and they've been in the game a while, whether they're a Legacy Leader and they're on their way out of leadership, all of the principles and the qualities that were revealed to me through my own journey are now incredibly helpful to other leaders. And it doesn't matter which industry, it doesn't matter what, what level. And it's just, it's something I'm going to do, it till the day I die. This is it's it's fun and rewarding and, and people seem to gain a lot from it. So I'm just, I'm just, first of all, as you can tell from my story, I'm very grateful to still be here, but I'm also grateful to have the opportunity to work with people who are truly interested in growing as leaders and becoming transformative in their leadership, not just effective I mean, being effective leaders is a very cool goal. It's a great it's a great thing. What I want to do is help really deeply inspire leaders to be transformative in the leadership, not just hit goals and hit various metrics and so on, but to transform the people around them, to inspire and transform the people around them, and through that, we accomplish amazing things as leaders in our organizations and whatever thing we're on. But that's in a nutshell, that's the that's kind of the back story, and I'm just, I just love doing what I do here.

Mick Spiers: 11:19

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing openly, Hank, first of all, I want to say that we're grateful that you're still with us as well, and you're able to share your gifts and experience and wisdom. I'll tell you what I'm taking away. I'm taking away this is a calling for you. It's a convergence of your worlds. I'm hearing that it's grounded in science psychotherapy, that it's you spent some time building the craft of understanding the human experience, I'm going to say, and helping people. The second part was interesting for me was getting back from behind the desk, which could feel very arm's length removed and academic and getting onto the shop floor, firstly with other companies, and then with your own companies, to see it with your own eyes, the real world application of what you knew, and then the thread of spiritual awareness and what we can learn from the spiritual world that can help us show up as leaders. That was the first part. The second part was, then a great question, is, why we allow this to happen? That a near death experience is what led you to stop and rethink and rethink your priorities and what's most important to you. And the final one was the work on identity and the question of who am I as a leader, not what do I do? And so often we label ourselves as what we do and not who we truly are and what we stand for. What do we stand for? What will we not stand for? Is a big part of who makes us up. And I want to come back to that one a bit later. Hank the first question that stuck with me. We're going to talk about the hidden strain of leadership in a moment. And one of the interesting ones for me, I've never asked a psychotherapist this question. One of the see challenges I see with leaders in the world is they are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders. And one of the things is that people are coming to them with problems. They're dealing with people every day, and usually they're a go to point for people to download and brain dump. Ah, this problem, this problem, this problem, this problem, and what it can lead to is a deep level of empathic concern that those people, the ones that manage to brain dump their problems onto the leader, go home feeling better because they got it off their chest. And if the leader doesn't have good skills to cope with that, they're the ones that are walking home with now a sack full of problems now. Now how? I'm curious, from a professional psychotherapist point of view, where you've got a diary of people coming in with their problems, how do you process that, and how could we translate translate that into a leadership lesson so you're not the one going home feeling like the world is a terrible place?

Hank Minor: 14:25

Yeah, great question. And Mick, first of all, your recounting of what you heard from me was brilliant. I mean, you, you nailed them, all three of them. You, you nailed them. And we'll get some time with that. But you know, the the interesting thing that I noticed along the way, is what I did was as a psychotherapist was no different. It was exactly the same as what I did as a leader. That was one of the challenges for me, was just say, okay, as a psychotherapist and a consultant. Later after that is, how does it? How does that? Does it? First of all, does it translate into leadership? It, or is it a separate category altogether? And what I found was it's seamless. It's identical. And so the to your question about, How do you keep from sagging under the weight of other people's problems? Because whether I'm a psychotherapist and they're coming in to talk about their marriage or their job or anxiety, or whatever it is, or there's someone coming through my door as a leader saying, you know, everything just went to hell in a hand basket out on the south floor, and we've got a big deadline to meet here, or whatever, or so and so just quit, or whatever. All the things are comments as leaders. What I found is there's a context, there's a way of looking at that. What happens is we if that becomes the whole screen, if that becomes the entire flat screen of our day, without a larger context, then we will tend to sag under the weight of that. We will tend to take that with us and take it home and so on. What I found is the remedy is to simply have a larger understanding of what it is to be able to step outside of ourselves, outside of the circumstance, outside of the building, outside of the business, and keep that in perspective. So understanding and perspective, are the two things that I would say, from a principal point of view of how you escape the trap of just keep taking things on and your knees buckle and you go down because everything's going down around you. That's it's a habit and an option that doesn't have to be exercised with the right sort of guidance and mentoring and whatever we can begin to it's like changing lenses. Mick, it's like saying, Okay, if we look at it from a very narrow point of view, it's just problem after problem after problem. If we insert a different lens in there and saying, This was a moment in time, if it's just one moment in a spectrum of eternity, of a much longer time, then we don't get lost in the moment. We don't get lost in the particular situation because we put it in a context. We put it in a perspective. Of this is a part of a larger process. That's one example of how you expand the context and the understanding the perspective, so that you don't get lost in the moment. To me, and I had to deal with these things. I mean, certainly, and you hit a good point there, both as a psychologist and psychotherapist and as a leader, as an active business leader, I had to, I had to constantly look at, how do I not collapse under the weight of what I'm carrying and what comes to me every day, which is part of my job, right? My door is open. Come in, talk to me about what's going on. We want real conversations. So there's there's the con, the contextual point of view, of perspective, and then there's all the various ways that we each have of releasing stress and releasing weight, which is hobbies and breath and meditation and relationship and dogs and, you know, nature and all the various ways that we have to do that, and that's together between the specific Ways and exercises for releasing strain and stress that coupled with a larger perspective and context, you can basically glide through almost anything. And as I look at my life now, and how I look at things now and interact with them and deal with the inevitable things that come at us in life and leadership, it's a much more poised and graceful way of going through it now than it was when I'd say, when I was in my 30s, I had the inkling of it then, and I had some good training of it then. But as the decades have gone on, the years and decades have gone on, the perspective is the thing that I would say is the most it's what I would call the senior principle, if you look at it a certain way, then it's not a problem. If your mindset, if your context and your perspective is such, your understanding is such, then it's not a problem. It's a gift. And so therefore, there's no weight to the gift. There's weight to the problem, but there's no weight to the gift. So looking at situations from a certain perspective, to me, is the most senior principle and the most important thing that we can do. It's a shift in thinking. It's, I'm not talking about belief. You have to believe one thing or another. It's literally like putting different lenses in front of your eyes and saying, Okay, what's my experience of this same situation when I look at it from this perspective, or this point of view, versus this perspective or this point of view that can take the weight off it so that the weight never really gets on you, and that, to me, is the most important work, the specific things for. Each of us, for you, Mick, and for me and for others to find out, what do we like to do, either during our work day or after work on the weekends and whatever, to relieve stress. Those are equally those are important. But if we can look at things and gain a perspective in such a way that it's not a problem, it's not weight, then we avoid the first wave of what was coming at us. We still deal with them. We still have to deal with the situation. We may have to have a very difficult conversation with a colleague. We may have to terminate someone's employment, whatever that is. We still have to deal with it. We still have to handle it. Mick, this is what I call bifocal vision. This is something that maybe your your audience, can take away. To me, it's one of the most important things that I teach, first with a leader, which is looking at the specific thing that's going on in our life. I call that street level, the reality what we wake up to every day, what we go through every day, and then the context and the understanding that we put around that, and you do that simultaneously. In the beginning, it's you go back and forth. You know, you feel the weight, you release the weight. You feel it. You release it. After a while, bifocal vision happens simultaneously where you are dealing with the day to day activities, whatever they are and any as you and I know any given day, it's up and down, right? You have a great day. You can have a horrible day, depending on what the day is, but the context that you put around it, the understanding and the perspective and the point of view that you put around it, creates an amazing balance and a clarity about it, so that you don't get lost in the moment. You don't get lost in the weeds. You don't get stuck there at street level and just think this is all there is because it isn't. And the perspective is that it can contain anything, and therefore you avoid and escape the initial dynamic of taking it on as weight. You look at it as part of your job. You look at it as part of your mission. You look at it as part of a as part of of growing as a human being and a leader. You start to want to be get silly about this. You start to welcome it comes through the door. You go here comes another one. I can see it coming. Come on. Bring it on. Because you can smile doing that like I am now. I can smile doing that because you have an understanding, a much larger understanding than just this moment of stress and strain and so on. If you don't have that understanding, it's then, how good are you at? Are you at offloading it at the end of the day and so on? But high blood pressure, hypertension, strokes, you know, depression, all of those things happen when either we don't have the larger context to hold all these things in a good way, or we don't have the means and the specific disciplines to offload them in a way. So bifocal vision, to me, is the most important piece, because it can short circuit, anything that's coming at us. And not only it's not just we avoid it, we are in a better position to handle it in a way that where everyone it is comes out of it in a more positive fashion. So I'll pause there and see if that makes sense to you.

Mick Spiers: 23:18

It did hang and I say I'm taking four interesting things away from this, as as I listened to you this bunch of things that are bunching around in my head. The first one was around understanding and perspective, what's really going on here, and then looking at it through multiple lenses, a local lens, a helicopter lens, stepping back, that was really key for me. The second part was the temporal nature and the words that jumped into my head when I was listening to you was this too shall pass that while, whilst trauma doesn't discriminate, it also comes and goes and this person that's in front of me, or whether it's myself, by the way, this person in front of me may come out stronger and more resilient at the end of this experience, and two weeks from now, they might be laughing about it. They're not laughing about it today, but two weeks from now, they might be laughing about it and getting on with their life. And the last one was the reframing. This was really powerful for me. The third one is you need, as a leader, you need some kind of stress release, something that you enjoy. It could be tennis, golf, chess, painting, reading. You also need your own release or or this is going to build up the pressure on yourself. And then the fourth one, which I purposely wanted to leave to last, is the reframing. And you didn't use all of these words on just sharing with you what was bouncing around my head when I was listening to the reframing, when you're talking about this as a gift, this is the gift that you're giving. The person was number one, number two. I was sitting there thinking that. Our job is not to solve the person's problem for them, but to help them solve the problem themselves, so that they so it doesn't become a level of dependence where they become stronger and they have more resilience and and you're you're helping them to come through so so to reframe what is my job, and that's another part of the reframe. Is, if you're feeling you're in one of these conversations and you're feeling like, I don't have time for this, the reframe for me would be too you don't have time not to and number two, this is your job. It's not part of your job. This is your job. So lean into it and help the person help themselves. Don't take the problem off them and carry it around for the rest of your life. Coach them through it so they can solve it themselves. How does that take?

Hank Minor: 25:52

You have a great way of offering feedback, and I love your words. Reframing is a great word. It's one that I'm going to use more and more now that you've said it, no, it's a it's a great playing back of what we just talked about. And this thing about the gift is, I mean, I picture myself sitting in my old office, right in my in my company, and the door was open to the main office, and then there was the factory floor out behind, and my doors were always open. I mean, if there was a private conversation, yeah, I shut the door, but 99% of the time, my door was wide open, and I would get up in the morning say, I wonder who's going to come through my door today. And I was also, I didn't stay in my office the whole time I was out on the floor, locked but, but again, the point being the gift wasn't necessarily, was it? Yes, you were right. The gift is the gift I'm giving to this person. But what if we got to the point of saying this person coming through the door was a gift to me, this was a gift. This was an opportunity to adapt quickly, listen deeply, be with this person, find out what they're going through, what they need, and then help to a good resolution. What if I looked at that as training, as a gift? What if I looked at it as I asked God or the universe to send me, put people through my door, to challenge me, to make me grow as a leader, and I adapt all through the day with anybody who comes from the door with anything, good news, bad news, in between, good, bad, ugly, whatever it is, and handle that in such a way that there is no strain that I leave that building and head home and go, Wow, that was a good workout. That was a good day. It's like going to the gym, going to fitness is like, it's like fitness training, right? These are the types of lenses that we can put in, because looking at it as a problem is a habit. It's a choice. Ultimately, the thing itself is happening, how we frame it, how we label it, how we approach it, is determines everything that happens next. I mean, do we feel it as a strain? Do we feel it as a as a pressure and a weight, or do we look at as an opportunity? Is like, Yeah, let's do this. And it's not just being positive, being a Pollyanna and being naive. It's not that at all. It's a much deeper thing. And it's a much deeper thing. Mick, it's and to me, it was like spiritual training. Can you deal with everything that happens in this particular day with equanimity, with grace, with poise, with empathy and compassion? Can you do that? Right? Can I do that? Of course, a day, most days, came up a little short.

Mick Spiers: 28:39

That's like, I tell that's like I told that.

Hank Minor: 28:41

over time, and this is the wisdom of age is, over time, I got better, and the things that used to rock me and knock me off balance didn't anymore, and that actually allowed me to be even more helpful. You know, right in that moment with that person, so that I wasn't reacting, it was like, Okay, here we go. I love the way that you play back things. You listen very well Mick, and anything that you want to dive into next is fine with me. Because this is, these are the kind of conversations that I love having with leaders, because it's not often. Mostly what I hear is about skill development, and I mean more skills on our, you know, more tools on our two belt. Great. That's super but when we can affect change in a shift internally in the way that we see things, so vision, for me is a very big part of leadership. And I don't mean like we talk about visionary leaders, visionary leadership, and that's a lot about looking down the road and being able to see patterns emerging. That's true. That's that's just fine. But to me, vision is about how we see things. And I want to go back to your word, which is reframe. How do we frame this, or reframe this in a way that changes our relationship to it? If we can change our relationship to. It, we can affect, influence and impact amazing things around us if we're locked into one way of looking at something. Then some days that works and some days that doesn't. But if we can, if we can expand the number of lenses that we have to look at it and ultimately come up with a context of this isn't happening to me. This was happening for me. This wasn't happening to me. I asked for this. You don't have to believe that. I mean, I'm not asking. I don't ever ask leaders for belief. I'm asking. Look at it through this point of view, look at it through this lens, and then tell me what your experience is. Okay, let's compare the experience, the new experience, versus the one that you came in with. Which one do you like better? The situation is the same. The situation hasn't changed, but our relationship to it has fundamentally been altered, and we have many more options and openings now.

Mick Spiers: 30:49

So let me share with you the reframing I'm taking from this that I love, which is the word bi directional, or omni directional gift. So I started with a frame listening to you Hank that we were giving a gift to others to help them build their muscles, to help them build their problem solving skills, to help them become more resilient. Now what I'm hearing is a level of meta cognition that we are also receiving a gift. And by the way, I have to tell you, when I heard you say this, this is how I feel about this podcast. I feel so blessed I get to every week I have to I have a conversation with a thought leader somewhere in the world that gets me to stop and reflect and think of something I've not thought of before and afterwards. I always reflect about what did I learn? What did I learn about the other person? What did I learn about the human condition? What did I learn about myself, and how might I apply that in my case, in the next interview, in a leadership case, in the next person that comes to a problem, I'm building that muscle, and I'm learning more about the world, more about the human condition. I'll say that word again, so that I can be more helpful to the next person. I absolutely love this Hank This is a great reframing, that it's a bi directional gift.

Hank Minor: 32:19

This is this great talking with you because, and we said, I said, before I think we got on the air here was, God, it must be incredible for you to sit there and get the get these new leaders every week. Isn't that a cool thing for you? Right? For you, another thing you just said, and I want to bring up, and this is, it's a little esoteric. I don't I really love talking with you. Mick, and again, I appreciate you having me this thing about giving and receiving. It's something that I in my private work, in my one on one work with leaders. We get to this point pretty quickly. I think some people gets us a little confused about it's it's more blessed to give than receive. That's how people often say, do you know that phrase?

Mick Spiers: 33:00

Yes.

Hank Minor: 33:01

It's more blessed to give than receive. That wasn't really the original quote was, it is as blessed to give as received. Now, Christian and Biblical stuff aside for a moment, let's just take the concept of giving and receiving. I take the point of view that, like in this relationship here right now this conversation that you and I are having is that when I give something, depending on what I give, that's what I receive. Giving and Receiving are simultaneously, simultaneous. They're equal. And I'm saying this as a as an optional way of looking at this. I'm not asking anybody to believe this being try and see what it sure works for me is when we give. It's not like karma, like, well, maybe in three weeks it'll come back around and benefit me, or whatever bite me in the ass, or whatever it is and whatever karma is going to do. But it's when we give, we are receiving what we're giving in that instant, not five minutes down the road, in five days or five years, that there's, there's a thing about coming from a place where we give, and by coming from that place, by giving it to someone else, we then receive it in ourselves. It's a again, as I said, it's a little esoteric, and I'm not, I'm not. I can tell that I'm not all that clear about talking about it right now. But there is this equality and this instantaneous dynamic that happens is that when we give something to someone from our heart, let's say in our spirit, that we receive that back, not necessarily from that person, right? So we don't, I don't give in order to get something from someone, I give because it's my nature to give, and by doing that, it reinforces that, pardon me, you talk about building a muscle. You talk about building the capacity, if it's compassion and in leadership. To me, compassion and empathy are huge. They are huge qualities, and a lot of my work with leaders is helping them overcome past things and. So that their compassion and their empathy is greater, because when they do that, it creates a field, it creates a space for the people around them that allows those people, and we talked about, know, like and trust, right? So this giving and receiving thing that you brought up, this, this, you know, sort of reciprocal thing, is really important, and to me, it goes to the heart of leadership, because what we give is what we receive, and by giving, we create a space and a dynamic and a field for people to open up and do amazing things.

Mick Spiers: 35:31

Okay, so what I was taking away from this was we often think about giving and receiving as a balance of trade, right? And I think this is in the reframes coming. We think about a balance of trade that if we give now, we'll get something back tomorrow, or I did a favor for Hank today, so he's going to do a favor for me tomorrow. And it's a beautiful world, isn't it? Which is okay, that's okay. The reframing I'm hearing now, it's actually in the moment, and that you're co creating something greater than any of the individuals would have done. So the so the recipient is getting something from the gift, but you are instantaneously getting something from the gift, which could be anything from learning to a sense of pride to a sense of, oh, wow, I really I've got a sense of meaning and purpose that I did something today that helped another human being, and I instantly feel better about myself because of in the moment. The gift and the receipt is in the moment. And what we've just done is we've increased the size of the pie. It's not a balance of trade. How does that seem?

Hank Minor: 36:43

That's a great place to come from as a leader. into a space, into a union, a communion of being together in this. And there are levels of that, and when you get to certain levels, it's an incredibly happy state. And you never have to name it. You don't have to talk about you don't even have to name it. But when you're in the room with people who are extending this kind of energy, this kind of relationship, this offering, this open space and field of inclusion, right? It's such a great experience. And out of that can come truly exceptional and amazing things. But it starts. It starts with the the idea of going beyond ourselves, understanding who we are. Of course, right, not saying we whitewash it like no, no, this is who we are. But when we come at it with a thought and an emotion and an expression that this is an inclusive thing, not just of individuals, but there is a there is a whole dynamic happening here. You can literally create that space in a boardroom, in a private one on one meeting, and people will feel that. Do you know what I'm talking about? I mean, you get this. I mean.

Mick Spiers: 39:58

I feel it hang we're going to. Care what I'm taking away and where I think it can lead. Let's see where this takes us. So we are moving away from transactional, we're moving away from I and you, and we're moving to we. I can see that for sure. And it could be any kind of conversation. It could be something that, on the surface, could have been a transactional conversation and a one directional conversation, a feedback conversation, or a coaching conversation, where you're trying to help the other person, but now we're going into we are co collaborators in this conversation, and I'm starting to feel a connection. And the connection is when we we feel like we're getting to really understand each other, and I start to feel very safe. I start to feel very connected to the other person that I'm talking to. And what I'm going to say where, where I think this is going to go for people. Hank is, once we get to that level of connection, that we connection, that we're in this together, is no longer you versus me in this situation, I'm going to tell you, I'm then going to have the courage to tell you what's really on my mind. So not not only are we going to have a better connection, we're going to have a better and courageous conversation where we talk about the real problem. What's the real challenge here, not the surface problem? How does that sit with you?

Hank Minor: 41:27

Yeah, and it's not just the problem that we can talk about. We can have the courage to talk about what's possible. I mean, clearly. Mick, I agree that we often hold back because we feel separate. We don't know if we're safe. So we hold back what we really think about something, and it happens every day in every company I've ever been a part of or walked into. And so yes, the we go from transactional to relational. So now we've got this relationship, this connection going, and we can say anything. So we can even say, you know, Mick, I need to talk to you about what happened yesterday and how you spoke to me, and that that really didn't work for me, that really it basically undermined what we're trying to do here. And I need to say that to you so we can have that conversation and get through it, because it's important that we get through it. Could I also be so courageous as to say, I love working with you. Mick, courage, right? I love working with you guys. Don't say that very often. It's like, look at this is I've worked in a lot of places. I just woke up today I was so grateful that it's you, right? How often do we say that? How often do we go to that kind of a place in the relationship? In the world of business, you know, can you say that? Can you be so courageous, feel so safe, that you could say, I love who you are, and I am just thrilled to be here with you.

Mick Spiers: 42:52

So when we get to that level, there's two things there. Now we've got connection and care. We're showing that we genuinely have each other's back, and we genuinely care for each other, my fear of judgment, my fear of social rejection, my fear of saying something stupid. It goes out the door and I can tell you anything.

Hank Minor: 43:15

Yeah, that's the kind of relationship that is. It's rare, but it starts with one person. It can start with just one person getting to that place, bringing that kind of an approach that and by approach, I don't mean that word. That's not the word I want. That's sort of a of a field, of a concept, of a of an intention. I'll say bringing that into a room can really make a difference throughout an entire organization. It's great when the leader right top down. So it's great when they model that kind of behavior, which is what I you know, there are lots of things in business that I wasn't that good at. No one would hire me to do that, but that was one of the things that I brought into the company that I was running, but someone at any level can bring that in and create start that chain reaction of, oh, it's actually okay to let down be real come from care and compassion. So in my point of view, it doesn't matter where it starts. It matters that it starts, that someone takes the lead on that and says, I'm going to offer a different relationship today and tomorrow and the day after. And that's how great cultures are built, and that's how great leaders leave legacies, is they care deeply, to have real conversations and to not be reactive. And so in the work that I do, it's called presence, it's helping people understand and experience what that is, what that feels like, what it looks like played out in a boardroom, in a in an office, and, you know, in a one on. One conversation, what that is. And not only are we grounded and aware of ourselves, great self awareness. As we start to put that energy out, it becomes magnetic, and people start become drawn to us because they feel safe with us. They feel like he's not going to judge me, right? He really gets me. And then the other thing that happens, the sort of the third dimension of presence, is it creates this field, this energetic field, and people come in and go, Wow, gotta love coming into work today. It wasn't like this with my old boss, but I love coming into work now, because this is what it's like, and then they go off into their department and create that in their department. It only takes one person to do it, but you have to have that sense of intention of I want to create this sort of experience for people around me, and that's true, and you and I know this. It's true whether or not we're in the building, in the in the business, or whether we're with our families or our friends, or out in the world, in the communities, or whatever, the same principle holds true. But I believe Mick that's, that's where leadership is going. I think that's where leadership can go is into a very high state of, I'm not just talking about Pollyanna being positive and that, you know, affirmations and nothing against them. But it's I'm not talking about a superficial level of creating a positive experience. I'm talking about transforming ourselves so that when we come into a room, when we come into a relationship, that's what we bring in. Now the other person may not choose to engage. That's okay. It's not manipulation. We're not this isn't charisma for the sake of manipulating. This is, this is presence for the sake of relationship. And then the people who feel moved to step forward and engage in that great my experience says that most often, when given the opportunity, sooner or later, people will and they love it, and then they go, boy, Mick. I'm glad I got here.

Mick Spiers: 47:05

It might even take them some time, particularly if it's new, if they've not seen this before, they might go, Well, where's this coming from? And then it'll take them a while to warm into it and to trust it to some respects. Okay, so hang what I love here, and this is going to lead us to our final question for today. I love when you said that this start with one person. So my question to you is this, there's going to be people listening to this going, Oh, this is what I want. This is the culture I want. These are the connections and the relationships that I want in the workplace. How do I start? How does a leader listening to the show go? I love this. How do they take the first step?

Hank Minor: 47:49

That's a great question, and it's individual for for everyone. I'll answer it on a few different levels. I think there are some. I'm old school, right? I've been like I said, I've been doing this a while. There is a book called leadership is an art. And this was a fellow who was working for the Herman manufacturing furniture company, and they revolutionized what it meant to lead a company. And this book, Dupree, by a fellow named Dupree, is called leadership is an art. That's a great place to start because it doesn't. It's not about techniques. Mick, it's not about specific things we can do. It's about a way of looking at business and leadership in a way that is so honoring, it's so deep and relational that it transforms everything and everyone around us. So the first thing I would say is, if you're looking for a good book. Leadership is an art. Is an excellent one. Any person that you can think of, if I Nick, if I said to you right now, and I said, Nick, if you think just for 30 seconds of who in your life, who have you met, who in your life at any level, personally, professional, whatever that is, models and exhibits profound presence. It might be. It might be someone living right. Might be someone, you know, it might be an historical figure, right? Could be Buddha or Jesus or some other religious figure. It could be somebody in the world of business and leadership that just for you personally, demonstrated profound presence. And go, if they're alive, go spend time with them. If you can study them, study them. Get in close to that. Because it's not about technique. It's about the essence of a person. They've allowed that to come out. And the other thing I would say is that, and it's, you know, it's one of the things that I found in my life. All through my career, I made sure that I had coaches and mentors who helped me. I could never be where I am today. I could never achieve any of the success that I achieved in my own life, had it not been for. The teachers and the coaches and the mentors that I had, and that was a tough one for me, because I came up through that whole rugged individual. I can carry it on my own. I'm going to be a self made man, blah, blah, blah. And the reality was I had a lot to learn and I wanted to grow. And what I found was that as soon as I let go of that need to do it on my own or whatever, and said, I want to see if there's someone who might be able to help me. Some amazing people came out of the woodwork. So that's another just, it's another avenue for for people, but find the sources, whether it's a book or it's a movie or it's a human being or it's a historical figure that exhibits that level of presence, that level of self awareness and of empathy and compassion, that kind of dynamic that draws people in and uplifts everyone. Find those sources and dive in.

Mick Spiers: 50:53

Really good Hank so I'm hearing the art of presence is a key one, and I'm going to share with you, well, first, first of all, I'm going to answer your question, Have I had people in my life that exhibited that level of presence? I'm going to say this guy called Hank miner was pretty good at it. The second thing I'm going to say is yes, I've had some really bad leaders, by the way, and I learned lessons from them too, but I've had some exceptional leaders. And I got to say, listening to you every one of those exceptional leaders, this was one of their characteristics, was presence. And I model some of my presence and listening on what I've learned from those mentors. And I think I'm going to reach out to them and show them some gratitude on what I learned from them, by the way, but this, this presence, was definitely part of it, and leaders out there that were the distracted leaders that were going at 100 miles an hour in in three different directions, that thought that were, you know, gun leaders. No, the thing that I want to share with you, though, is the lesson that I take away, and you can talk about Maya Angelou here, if we like, and think about, you know, people may forget what you said, they may forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. What was different with those present leaders is how they made me feel.

Hank Minor: 52:15

Exactly that's so well said and clearly, clearly they I mean, like I said, I've been around the block a few times. Clearly, you have been with some very exceptional leaders the way you present yourself. Mick, and I'm going to just say this straight up, and this is the know, like and trust. Part of the show here is that, is that I meet a lot of people, and I have a lot of respect for everyone and great compassion for everyone. You have obviously had some major schooling and time with people who are who have great presence, because you bring that to your show, and this is one of my first podcasts, right? And so it's going to be, it's going to be a tough it'll be an interesting thing as I go down the road and do some other podcasts, because you bring a level of presence that I am so grateful for today, and it's a complete pleasure, an absolute pleasure. You and I may never talk again, I don't know, but I want to make sure that you understand leaving this is that it's been an incredible pleasure for me today to be with you because of who you are. I love your podcast, and it's great, but you bring a level of presence that is rare and powerful, and I hope you know that.

Mick Spiers: 53:28

Well. Thank you, Hank. I really, really appreciate it, and I'm going to go back to you and say the reciprocal gift. I feel richer for every conversation I have on this show, and particularly today, I feel richer for our conversation today as well. So that reciprocal gift is everything we talked about 20 minutes is playing out in real time right here. All right, so I'm going to bring us to a close now. I'm going to give a short summary of some key takeaways, Hank and then I'm going to ask you our closing questions, the same four questions we ask all of our guests so leaders listening to the show. So think about the hidden strain of leadership, the weight of leadership. It will feel like people are coming to you day after day, day after day, with problem after problem, problem after problem. The skills and reframing that Hank is giving you is the way to not only cope with that, but become richer because of it. Become richer from that experience. So to think about the fact of perspective taking, looking for what is the really going on here? The understanding and the perspective taking, the temporal nature this too shall pass. Trauma doesn't discriminate, but it also comes and goes. This will help you to understand what's going on, to help you cope that you do need your own release mechanisms. You might need a hobby, whatever that may be for you, that allows you to have some level of stress release, the ability to reframe this relationship you have with the other people, that it's a reciprocal gift, that you're there to help them solve their own problems, not take the problems on for them and carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. You're here to help them, but in doing so, you're building your muscle, and you're getting richer and more experienced, and you're learning about the human condition, about the other person. You're learning about yourself and the way that you think and the way that you problem solve, and you will become better at it the more that you build that muscle. And the final one that it's a co creation. It's not a transactional relationship here. It's a relational relationship, where you're co creating something together when you're present with each other, this art of the present, you're going to co create something. You're going to build this deeper connection, where the person is going to feel safe, where they're going to know, like and trust you, where they're going to have the courage to tell you what's really on their mind, and not, not leave the most difficult thing off the table, because they trust you, because they feel your care for them, that you deeply care about them, that you have their back, they're actually going to tell you what's really on their mind. And guess what? You're going to have the license, when you have that connection to tell you then what's really on your mind, and you're going to be both richer from the experience. So Hank, thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful. I'm now going to take us to those four questions. So what's the one thing you know now, Hank Minor, that you wish you knew when you're 20?

Hank Minor: 56:42

I wish I had known the depth and the principles of deep leadership that I know now, and those principles are rooted not only in all the great leaders that we know, but in psychology and in spiritual wisdom and so on. I wish I had known those, some of those key principles, back when I was 20 that would have saved me from making a lot of mistakes. And I don't want to say wasting time, because it just took the time. Took whatever it took. But those, those deep life and spiritual and leadership principles, I wish I had known them then that would have been incredibly helpful.

Mick Spiers: 57:26

It would have been a fast track, and it would have been a richer experience. But don't forget, you learned from all of those mistakes as well. Right? What's your favorite book?

Hank Minor: 57:33

Leadership is an art by by a lot. It's I go back to that simply because I it was the first time Mick that I ever felt that business and leadership was something more than than surface level success, right, that sort of thing. And he just put it in such a way that it opened up an entire dimension of, oh, this is how it could feel. This was the experience I could have in business as a leader in the world of leadership. So I always go back to that. And there are so many good books. I mean, I recently did a list for somebody, and there's like 100 books, and they and they range from psychology to esoteric spiritual literature and the whole bit. But I think for it's a classic leadership as an artist is a classic. And I this is just my it's just Gus was to my heart. So that's the one I go back to.

Mick Spiers: 58:28

All right, nice one. What's your favorite quote?

Hank Minor: 58:32

My favorite quote, and I don't even know who to attribute this to. I don't know who said this, but in all of our talk about lenses and perspectives and point of view, my favorite quote is you can't do something differently until you see it differently. You can't do things differently until you see things differently.

Mick Spiers: 58:52

That really hits home. I love it. Mick and reframing is such a powerful technique. Otherwise you can get stuck. You get stuck really good. And finally, Hank there's going to be people that are blown away by this conversation. I'm not exaggerating there at all, people that do struggle, firstly with the strain of leadership and the weight of leadership, but that would want to lean into all of the techniques that we've been talking about today. How do people find you if they'd like to know more?

Hank Minor: 59:24

Thank you for asking. And I do hope people have gotten something from this. I hope that sincerely, the two ways I think that are best. One is I have a website. It's called thewayofleadership.com All one word, thewayofleadership.com, that's available, that'll talk about my work and how I you know, the principles under which I teach and share and so on. And then Instagram is a place I enjoy. And so hankminorleadership. If you go on to Instagram and look at Hank miner leadership, there's a there's an account there, and you can. Follow what I do. I post about three times a week there and and then anytime, one of the things I like to tell people is that I love Mick has been super I love talking about leadership, and I love talking with leaders about what they're going through and so on. If you ever anybody wants to have a conversation, there's no obligation, there's no charge for that. It's like someone wants to reach out at any point. As we get to certain thresholds in our leadership and the pressure builds up, sometimes it becomes, you know, we want it more as an option. We want to we would like to have a little bit of feedback and so on. Always happy to have a conversation with someone and just and see where that goes. But there's no obligation to that, and I'm in the United States, and text and email and all of that. So it's I offer that to anyone, but the website and the Instagram is a great way to follow me and learn more about what I do and my door, like I said in my when I was running my company, my door is always open.

Mick Spiers: 1:00:56

All right. Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Hank. As we lead towards a closing. I just want to say one more thing to the audience, which is everything you've heard from Hank today. This is a really big takeaway for me. If you want the culture that Hank is talking about, remember that it said, he said it can start with one person, and guess what? That person can be you. That person can be you. So, Hank, thank you so much for the gift of your time, your wisdom and your experience today, I genuinely feel richer for this conversation. I greatly appreciate you sharing it with us today.

Hank Minor: 1:01:30

Thank you. Mick, this was a pleasure. Hope to see you again.

Mick Spiers: 1:01:35

So what stood out for you in that conversation? Was it the weight that leaders carry? Was it the question of identity, who you are beneath the role, or was it the realization that leadership doesn't have to be something you carry alone? Because for me, one of the biggest takeaways from this conversation with Hank Miner is this leadership becomes dangerous when the role consumes the person, and that happens more often than we like to admit. When we take on too much, when we stop sharing the load, when we believe we always need to be the strong one, that's when pressure builds quietly over time. So here's something to reflect on. Where are you carrying more than you need to where are you holding things in that need to be shared? And who do you have around you that you can lean on? Because leadership wasn't meant to be a solo journey. You need someone that you can rely on. You need that outlet. In the next episode, we're going to build on this idea, but we're going to zoom out. We're going to move from the inner world of leadership to the culture that leaders create, because it's not just about how you show up as a leader, it's about the environment that your behavior creates for others. I'm going to be rejoined by the amazing Bill Benjamin, and we're going to explore why great cultures don't choose between care and accountability. They demand both. You've been listening to The Leadership Project. If today sparked an insight, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with one other person who would benefit from listening to the show. A huge thank you to Gerald Calibo for his tireless work editing every episode, and to my amazing wife Sei, who does all the heavy lifting in the background to make this show possible? None of this happens without them around here. We believe leadership is a practice, not a position, that people should feel seen, heard, valued, and that they matter, that the best leaders trade ego for empathy, certainty for curiosity and control for trust. If that resonates with you, please subscribe on YouTube and on your favorite podcast app, and if you want more, follow me on LinkedIn and explore our archives for conversations that move you from knowing to doing until next time, lead with curiosity, courage and care.